Not football related

[Tiger Al 0]

As someone who's been overseas in the military I understand what vatz is saying. It only takes a few 'bad apples' to make people in a host country have a negative opinion of Americans. I was in Germany and am only talking about general rudeness. What we have here in Iraq is much more serious.

Once again, what has changed?

What do you mean?

[DKW 86 7,969]

Anyone that commits a war crime should be tried and/or punished.

I served 6 years and never committed a war crime. I bet Tiger Al, Ranger 12, and many more did the same.

Anyone that participated in this crap needs to be dealt with and fast. We are not this way. If we are, then what the hell is the point going to war in the first place?

"But Dave, they werent properly trained." Get a freaking life! Why in the heck would we strip grown men naked and do stupid things with them? Why in the hell did they take pictures? How stupid is that?

I see a good case for cleaning the gene pool a little more with these morons that have embarassed themselves, the US military, and the whole country.

[Guest AuNuma1]

I dont see what the big deal is. At least our soldiers didn't hang and mutilate any dead bodies. A small group on both sides have done wrong (moreso on their side IMHO)...so why all the fuss?

[TitanTiger 21,583]

As someone who's been overseas in the military I understand what vatz is saying. It only takes a few 'bad apples' to make people in a host country have a negative opinion of Americans. I was in Germany and am only talking about general rudeness. What we have here in Iraq is much more serious.

I understand what he's saying, I just don't agree with it. And he's actually gone further than to say that others will view Americans badly because of this...he is extrapolating the shame to all Americans and I don't accept that. He may come back and say that's not what he's really saying, but comments like, "America, where we protect the corrupt and beat the free" prove otherwise. Either that or he hasn't thought his comments through very well before committing them to writing.

[TitanTiger 21,583]

I dont see what the big deal is.  At least our soldiers didn't hang and mutilate any dead bodies.  A small group on both sides have done wrong (moreso on their side IMHO)...so why all the fuss?

Well the big deal is that our soldiers should be above this kind of behavior. I don't accept this at all and think the ones involved should be punished to the full extent of the law. The only point I'm arguing against is that we should all be ashamed because of the actions of a group that's approximately 1/25th of the US soldier population in Iraq right now. I don't accept group guilt...but I especially don't accept it when the guilty are such a miniscule part of the group as a whole.

[stoic-one 1,589]

To me the difference is that we actually CARE that this was done....These guys will be punished....Will any of those folks in Fallujah even discuss the crap they did, let alone be punished. Not an excuse, just reality, we are better than that BECAUSE we won't tolerate it.

[CCTAU 3,658]

I dont see what the big deal is.  At least our soldiers didn't hang and mutilate any dead bodies.  A small group on both sides have done wrong (moreso on their side IMHO)...so why all the fuss?

Well the big deal is that our soldiers should be above this kind of behavior. I don't accept this at all and think the ones involved should be punished to the full extent of the law. The only point I'm arguing against is that we should all be ashamed because of the actions of a group that's approximately 1/25th of the US soldier population in Iraq right now. I don't accept group guilt...but I especially don't accept it when the guilty are such a miniscule part of the group as a whole.

6 guys is 1/25th? I know I am math major from AU, but that just doesn't sound right!!!

[vatz22au 146]

I understand what he's saying, I just don't agree with it.  And he's actually gone further than to say that others will view Americans badly because of this

Please...Titan...I know your smarter than this....OF COURSE OTHER PEOPLE WILL VIEW AMERICANS BADLY BECAUSE OF THIS.....

Duh....are you really just sitting there saying every country and person around the world aware of this is just going to take it with a grain of salt? No, they will be offended, and yes, they care....because there are other people out there that, like me, do not put up with this kind of crap.

Thats why it shouldnt be tolerated....our actions will always represent America....you know this.

[TitanTiger 21,583]

I understand what he's saying, I just don't agree with it.  And he's actually gone further than to say that others will view Americans badly because of this

Please...Titan...I know your smarter than this....OF COURSE OTHER PEOPLE WILL VIEW AMERICANS BADLY BECAUSE OF THIS.....

Duh....are you really just sitting there saying every country and person around the world aware of this is just going to take it with a grain of salt? No, they will be offended, and yes, they care....because there are other people out there that, like me, do not put up with this kind of crap.

Thats why it shouldnt be tolerated....our actions will always represent America....you know this.

Please slow down, take a Valium, and reread what I said. You couldn't have missed it any worse if you swung with your eyes closed. Go back and see what preceded my post to Tiger Al:

Whatever. I know some people will see that and take it as how Americans are in general. But I choose to evaluate the situation on a deeper and more considered level than that. These guys by their actions have betrayed America's ideals and I accept no kinship with them.

[TitanTiger 21,583]

I dont see what the big deal is.  At least our soldiers didn't hang and mutilate any dead bodies.  A small group on both sides have done wrong (moreso on their side IMHO)...so why all the fuss?

Well the big deal is that our soldiers should be above this kind of behavior. I don't accept this at all and think the ones involved should be punished to the full extent of the law. The only point I'm arguing against is that we should all be ashamed because of the actions of a group that's approximately 1/25th of the US soldier population in Iraq right now. I don't accept group guilt...but I especially don't accept it when the guilty are such a miniscule part of the group as a whole.

6 guys is 1/25th? I know I am math major from AU, but that just doesn't sound right!!!

Well, it looks like there may be more involved before the investigation was over. But I initially threw out a number of 20. Then I said, even if someone said there were 100 of our guys that did this, based on about 230,000 troops, that's .04 percent of the soldiers there...er, excuse me...even based on my rather liberal numbers, that would be 1/2500th. Thanks. :bonk:

[vatz22au 146]

I understand what he's saying, I just don't agree with it.  And he's actually gone further than to say that others will view Americans badly because of this

Please...Titan...I know your smarter than this....OF COURSE OTHER PEOPLE WILL VIEW AMERICANS BADLY BECAUSE OF THIS.....

Duh....are you really just sitting there saying every country and person around the world aware of this is just going to take it with a grain of salt? No, they will be offended, and yes, they care....because there are other people out there that, like me, do not put up with this kind of crap.

Thats why it shouldnt be tolerated....our actions will always represent America....you know this.

Please slow down, take a Valium, and reread what I said. You couldn't have missed it any worse if you swung with your eyes closed. Go back and see what preceded my post to Tiger Al:

Whatever. I know some people will see that and take it as how Americans are in general. But I choose to evaluate the situation on a deeper and more considered level than that. These guys by their actions have betrayed America's ideals and I accept no kinship with them.

Please titan...explain....what did you mean by ," he's actually gone further than to say that others will view Americans badly because of this"....I read that as..."Vatz thinks these actions will cause other people to view Americans badly"...am I right? How can you mean something else...? Wierd how you say I read you wrong, yet you dont even attempt to say what I missed....Actually, I think I read you right the first time yet you saw that I had a point...and it made sense....Our actions are represented by others who fight for this country.

Anyways...heres another good link for ya

Yep thats right, 25 iraqi prisoners dead by American hands by torturing...oh and the number is still growing as the investigation continues.

Still think it should be shrugged off? Didnt think so.

[TitanTiger 21,583]

Please titan...explain....what did you mean by ,"  he's actually gone further than to say that others will view Americans badly because of this"....I read that as..."Vatz thinks these actions will cause other people to view Americans badly"...am I right?  How can you mean something else...?  Wierd how you say I read you wrong, yet you dont even attempt to say what I missed....Actually, I think I read you right the first time yet you saw that I had a point...and it made sense....Our actions are represented by others who fight for this country.

No, you didn't read me right. You are answering before thinking. Again, I refer you to what I've already said:

...he is extrapolating the shame to all Americans and I don't accept that. He may come back and say that's not what he's really saying, but comments like, "America, where we protect the corrupt and beat the free" prove otherwise. Either that or he hasn't thought his comments through very well before committing them to writing.

In other words, you are going beyond simply saying that others will view us badly. You are indicting America in general. And if you say you're not doing that, then you'll need to translate your statement about America "[protecting] the corrupt and [beating] the free" for me because at that point, a normal person would conclude that you're taking what this miniscule number of soldiers did and extrapolating that to us all. THAT is where I don't agree with you.

Anyways...heres another good link for ya

Yep thats right, 25 iraqi prisoners dead by American hands by torturing...oh and the number is still growing as the investigation continues.

Still think it should be shrugged off?  Didnt think so.

I defy you to find one instance here or anywhere you can dig it up where I have said anything of the sort. I'll save you some time. I haven't. I (sheesh, I'm tired of repeating myself) AGAIN say that these guys should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. What they did was awful and goes against what virtually all Americans believe in.

I'm not sure how I could be any clearer, vatz.

[tiger88 934]

Did I miss something? The last thing I heard we were talking about prisoners being peed on and such. Has there really been confirmed deaths due to torturing?

[Tiger Al 0]

Did I miss something? The last thing I heard we were talking about prisoners being peed on and such. Has there really been confirmed deaths due to torturing?

Yes.

[aumoore 0]

I think what the American Soliders did was wrong and uncalled for. I think they should be punished by getting dishonerably discharged from the army and maybe given a few days in the brigg before they are discharged.

Now I want to know where all of you were when our Private citizans and Soliders were beaten, killed, stripped naked and drug thru the streets to be hung over the river for thousands of Iraq's to chant at and burn?

[tiger88 934]

Did I miss something? The last thing I heard we were talking about prisoners being peed on and such. Has there really been confirmed deaths due to torturing?

Yes.

War is hell, no doubt! The reason I don't share the level of outrage that some have is because I see this as an expected by-product of war. Yes it is horrible!, but horrible things like this happen in every war. Sometimes it is hard to turn the kill switch off so to speak.

[TitanTiger 21,583]

Now I want to know where all of you were when our Private citizans and Soliders were beaten, killed, stripped naked and drug thru the streets to be hung over the river for thousands of Iraq's to chant at and burn?

Probably feeling awful, pissed, and as helpless as you felt when you saw in on television. But we can't really control everything those people do. But we expect more of our own.

[texaubie 0]

Does anyone think that those poor, helpless Iraqi prisoners would have any remorse over slitting your throat while you slept and raping your children if given the opportunity?

It doesn't make what the guilty US soldiers did right but its an unfortunate byproduct of any war.

[TitanTiger 21,583]

I think one of the problems is that not all of the prisoners were there because of any concrete thing they had done. Some were picked up at checkpoints as "suspicious" but had not attacked anyone. Others were picked up for questioning because of what some of the earlier prisoners said under interrogation. Not all of these guys are guilty of anything.

[texaubie 0]

I think one of the problems is that not all of the prisoners were there because of any concrete thing they had done.  Some were picked up at checkpoints as "suspicious" but had not attacked anyone.  Others were picked up for questioning because of what some of the earlier prisoners said under interrogation.  Not all of these guys are guilty of anything.

I understand but neither were the 4 guys that worked for Halliburton. Ideally, we would only catch and or kill the guilty but its very difficult when they dress in civilian clothes and hide guns under their beds. We are in a war and this is not Utopia.

I'm not condoning what the US soldiers did but I understand how and why it could happen. Was there a major war in history that war crimes did not occur? Our guilty soldiers should be punished for committing these crimes and we should move on and put the necessary actions in place to minimize the chance of this happening again. I just prefer to worry about what's happening to our soldiers, not theirs.

[TitanTiger 21,583]

Well, as I said on another thread, it's a bigger deal because we're supposed to be the good guys bringing freedom, democracy, and basic human rights to a region that's only known dictatorship, oppression, torture and coercion for the last 30 years. It undercuts our case.

[Tiger Al 0]

Well, as I said on another thread, it's a bigger deal because we're supposed to be the good guys bringing freedom, democracy, and basic human rights to a region that's only known dictatorship, oppression, torture and coercion for the last 30 years. It undercuts our case.

This is scary, TT. I think that you and I are in total agreement on something for once!

[TitanTiger 21,583]

Wow, you'd think the earth would shake or something!

[texaubie 0]

Well, as I said on another thread, it's a bigger deal because we're supposed to be the good guys bringing freedom, democracy, and basic human rights to a region that's only known dictatorship, oppression, torture and coercion for the last 30 years. It undercuts our case.

I agree with what you are saying. It definitely does undercut our "case". I just believe that its an unfortunate byproduct of sending men to kill each other. Can you send a man into a city to get shot at and kill people and then expect him to be gentle with the guys that were trying to kill him. I believe the US soldiers will pay for what they did for the rest of their lives either through direct incarceration or the mental impact down the road.

[vatz22au 146]

Well, as I said on another thread, it's a bigger deal because we're supposed to be the good guys bringing freedom, democracy, and basic human rights to a region that's only known dictatorship, oppression, torture and coercion for the last 30 years.  It undercuts our case.

I agree with what you are saying. It definitely does undercut our "case". I just believe that its an unfortunate byproduct of sending men to kill each other. Can you send a man into a city to get shot at and kill people and then expect him to be gentle with the guys that were trying to kill him. I believe the US soldiers will pay for what they did for the rest of their lives either through direct incarceration or the mental impact down the road.

Lets hope they do