Losing Jobs Overseas helps America

[Donutboy 0]

It doesn't take long to know that this group has never had a mortgage to meet or had to worry about how they're going to feed their families because of losing a job. I can't wait to see Bush defend his "jobs lost overseas are good for America" statement on the campaign trail, especially considering this administration cut off unemployment benefits to millions of these dislocated workers just before the congressional Christmas recess!!

Bush report: Sending jobs overseas helps U.S.

By Seattle Times wire services

WASHINGTON — The movement of American factory jobs and white-collar work to other countries is part of a positive transformation that will enrich the U.S. economy over time, even if it causes short-term pain and dislocation, the Bush administration said yesterday.

The embrace of foreign "outsourcing," an accelerating trend that has contributed to U.S. job losses in recent years and has become an issue in the 2004 elections, is contained in the president's annual report to Congress on the U.S. economy.

"Outsourcing is just a new way of doing international trade," said N. Gregory Mankiw, chairman of Bush's Council of Economic Advisors, which prepared the report. "More things are tradable than were tradable in the past. And that's a good thing."

The report, which predicts the nation will reverse a three-year employment slide by creating 2.6 million jobs in 2004, is part of an effort by the administration to highlight signs that the recovery is picking up speed. Bush's economic stewardship has become a central issue in the presidential campaign.

In his message to Congress yesterday, Bush said the economy "is strong and getting stronger," thanks in part to his tax cuts and other economic programs. He said the nation had survived a stock-market meltdown, recession, terrorist attacks, corporate scandals and war in Afghanistan and Iraq, and it was finally beginning to enjoy "a mounting prosperity that will reach every corner of America."

The president repeated that message during an afternoon "conversation" on the economy at SRC Automotive, an engine-rebuilding plant in Springfield, Mo., where he lashed out at lawmakers who oppose making his tax cuts permanent.

"When they say, 'We're going to repeal Bush's tax cuts,' that means they're going to raise your taxes, and that's wrong. And that's bad economics," he said.

Democrats who want Bush's job were quick to challenge his claims.

Campaigning yesterday in Roanoke, Va., Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts, the front-runner for the Democratic presidential nomination, questioned the credibility of the job-creation forecast.

"I've got a feeling this report was prepared by the same people who brought us the intelligence on Iraq," he said. "I don't think we need a new report about jobs in America. I think we need a new president who's going to create jobs in America."

In an evening appearance at George Mason University in Fairfax, Va., Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina said it would come as a "news bulletin" to the American people that the outsourcing of jobs overseas is good for the country.

"These people," he said of the Bush administration, "what planet do they live on? They are so out of touch."

Last year's Economic Report of the President predicted that 1.7 million jobs would be created in 2003. Instead, the nation lost 53,000 jobs. In Bush's three years in office, 2.2 million jobs have disappeared.

Since the Great Depression, it has never taken this long for the economy to begin creating jobs after emerging from a recession. After the last recession ended in 1991, it took 14 months for employment to begin expanding. Current problems with the economy have gone on nearly twice as long, 26 months.

Most economists said they expect more jobs to be created in 2004 as the recovery gains steam. But many also cautioned that the White House's prediction is aggressive, noting that only 112,000 jobs were created in January.

Economists had expected 150,000 new jobs in Friday's Labor Department report for January. Most have said the economy should be creating 200,000 to 300,000 jobs a month to sustain the recovery.

In a normal year, Bush's hope for 2.6 million new jobs probably could be achieved, said Douglas Porter, senior economist with BMO Nesbitt Burns, an investment firm affiliated with the parent company of Chicago's Harris Bank.

"Unfortunately, this recovery has been marked most notably by persistent weakness in the labor market," Porter said. "I suspect that will continue to be a hallmark of the recovery."

Paul Kasriel, chief economist at Chicago's Northern Trust, was more pessimistic.

"I doubt that we will see that many new jobs created this year," he said of the White House prediction. "I think it will be 1.5 million, which is better than a poke in the eye." But he added, "Even that is iffy."

Much of the report repeats the administration's previous economic prescriptions. For instance, it says the Bush tax cuts must be made permanent to have their full beneficial effect on the economy.

Social Security also must be restructured to let workers put part of their retirement funds in private accounts, the report argues. Doing so could add nearly $5 trillion to the national debt by 2036, the president's advisers note, but the additional borrowing would be repaid 20 years later and the program's long-term health would be more secure.

Compiled from reports by the Los Angeles Times, the Chicago Tribune and Knight Ridder Newspapers.

[War Eagle 96 10]

It doesn't take long to know that this group has never had a mortgage to meet or had to worry about how they're going to feed their families because of losing a job.

Are you talking about Clinton?

[War Eagle 96 10]

What people have to understand is that these are not "our" jobs to lose (the ones going over seas). These are jobs that corporations decide to whom they will be given. If you have the skills and work ethic they want for the job they want you to fill AND you'll do it for the right price...you'll ge the job. If not, they can give that job to whatever individual they damn well want, including sending those jobs over seas.

Many people in this country have a sense of entitlement. They think that because they exist, they deserve a job. How bout developing a job skill...already have one and still don't have a job? Whoops..you chose the wrong job skill.

The key is driving yourself to gain the education, training and experience that compaines and organizations desire.

[TrueBlue72 0]

This is the day of the global economy. Long past is the time when jobs are based on the locale, rather than economic considerations. You can wish all you want, but that is the reality of today, regardless of which party is in control.

The alternative to outsourcing is for those corporations to go out of business and others, in other countries to take their place in the global market. It is better to outsource and keep some of the jobs than to fail to do so and lose them all.

President Bush is simply embracing reality. The ones who think we can keep all the jobs within our borders are in a fantasy world, indeed.

[Donutboy 0]

What people have to understand is that these are not "our" jobs to lose (the ones going over seas). These are jobs that corporations decide to whom they will be given. If you have the skills and work ethic they want for the job they want you to fill AND you'll do it for the right price...you'll ge the job. If not, they can give that job to whatever individual they damn well want, including sending those jobs over seas.

Many people in this country have a sense of entitlement. They think that because they exist, they deserve a job. How bout developing a job skill...already have one and still don't have a job? Whoops..you chose the wrong job skill.

The key is driving yourself to gain the education, training and experience that compaines and organizations desire.

I love that argument. Y'all just keep repeating it loud and clear until November!! It's YOUR fault that you won't take a pay cut and work for $5 a day. It's YOUR fault that our government has allowed the health care industry to fleece us to the point to where our companies can no longer afford to pay American workers the basic health care that they need. It's your fault our number one export has become jobs!! Anyone that wants to work can find work. If you really want a job, Wal-Mart's hiring!! Keep repeating that!! I think it's working. I can hear Bush's approval ratings moving already!!

[War Eagle 96 10]

That's not what I said, meatball...good day.

[Jenny AU-92 0]

especially considering this administration cut off unemployment benefits to millions of these dislocated workers just before the congressional Christmas recess!!

Donut, do you have short term memory disorder? That is the only explanation I can come up with for why we have to CONSTANTLY repeat things to you.

CONGRESS spends money. CONGRESS authorizes extension of unemployment benefits. All the President can do is sign it once it hits his desk. All he could have done about this situation is to re-call Congress into emergency session. As much as you wish it were so, this is NOT GWB's fault. Neither are cancer, termite infestations, nor the outrageous cost of pedicures at my favorite salon. He is not Satan. He does not have Wondertwin Superpowers. He is not solely responsible for every bad ting that happens on this planet.

I am so sorry to be the one to break this to you. :roll:

[TitanTiger 21,068]

[Jenny AU-92 0]

Anyone that wants to work can find work. If you really want a job, Wal-Mart's hiring!! Keep repeating that!! I think it's working. I can hear Bush's approval ratings moving already!!

I worked retail, in a jewelry store, with a Masters Degree, because I could not find another job in the early 90s. Sure, I could have sat on my butt at home, but you know what? I wanted to work, so I went out and got a job, all the while sending out resumes. A year later, I found a job - and the fact that I worked at SOMETING while I was looking actually helped. It showed initiative. So yeah, I would have worked at Wal-Mart had it come to that. If the choice is paying your bills and eating on your own dime versus counting on some government entitlement program to pick up MY slack, when I was able bodied and physically able to work, well, guess what most people I know would choose?

[TitanTiger 21,068]

Fresh out of college, I got a job in my field (marketing) at a record label in Nashville. Seven months later the company restructured and my job didn't exist anymore. I had a little money in the bank and tried for about two months to find another marketing job in the music industry to no avail. I finally had to go get something to pay the bills. So, I took a job at Circuit City going into the Christmas season. I did well enough to pay rent and utilities, have some food, and put gas in the car but that was it. And I mean that was it. I remember only having Christmas Day off. I drove over 4 hours home that year on Christmas Eve (late afternoon), was with my family Christmas morning, and left late that afternoon so I could be at work at 7am the day after Christmas. (UGH!) They kept me on after Christmas because I worked hard and did pretty well, promoting me to the car audio department.

I stayed there until March when I decided to take a different route. I went to work for a very small record label that caters to gift and specialty stores...they play our music overhead to enhance the store's atmosphere but they also sell the CDs, either in a small counter top spinner display or with one of those kiosks you walk up to and press buttons to hear samples. But I had to get the marketing thing out of my head...I took a job on their phone sales team. I had never done commissioned sales until the Circuit City thing, but having some success in that environment gave me the confidence to take this new job which also had a heavy commission component to the pay.

Bottom line, I'm still here 8 years later. I'm now the marketing director, although I held two other positions here before that, neither of which were marketing. And it's all really because instead of going for months drawing unemployment or welfare or whatever, I took a job somewhere that was hiring. What got me to even go to Circuit City in the first place was a banner hanging outside the one near where I lived that said "Now Hiring for Christmas". I wasn't going to get rich there (although some of the ones who had been there a long time were making pretty good money...selling appliances, big screen TVs and home theater systems and such). I just needed a job. I needed to quit sitting at home feeling depressed. And, as it turns out, I needed a new skill. And that experience, combined with my sales experience at my current company were all key contributing factors to me getting the job I have now.

Sometimes you have to start somewhere. Even if it's Wal-Mart or some store in the mall or whatever. Better than sitting around waiting for something to come to you.

[Shug2003 1]

Yes, and the tooth fairy is coming tonight! WDE!

[TitanTiger 21,068]

Yes, and the tooth fairy is coming tonight! WDE!

Do you have a point, or do you routinely expect people to accept answers like this as actual salient points in a discussion? I just need to know whether or not to ignore you in the future and save myself valuable time and energy.

[MDM4AU 337]

I worked in Ad sales for a few years. I was let go 6 months before my graduation. (Didn't hit my numbers 2 months in a row.) No one wanted to pay me (w/o degree) what I was used to making. So until I could get my degree, I had to do something. I went to work doing construction. It paid about 1/3 of what I was used to but it paid the bills. There were guys I worked around always looking for an honest hard worker. Key: "always looking" Too many times there are jobs out there for people to take, it's just easier to live off someone else for a while.

That story was one of the things my boss (now) said stuck out about me. My "determination to EARN a living," to quote him.

[War Eagle 96 10]

Yes, and the tooth fairy is coming tonight! WDE!

Wha?

[CCTAU 3,470]

I worked in Ad sales for a few years. I was let go 6 months before my graduation. (Didn't hit my numbers 2 months in a row.) No one wanted to pay me (w/o degree) what I was used to making. So until I could get my degree, I had to do something. I went to work doing construction. It paid about 1/3 of what I was used to but it paid the bills. There were guys I worked around always looking for an honest hard worker. Key: "always looking" Too many times there are jobs out there for people to take, it's just easier to live off someone else for a while.

That story was one of the things my boss (now) said stuck out about me. My "determination to EARN a living," to quote him.

I think we all have stories to tell about having to work somewhere we didn't want too to pay the bills. The key thing here is to work. The job entitlement statement is dead-on. We have too many people in this country being told they are worth more than what they have earned. I started out at the bottom of my business working nights. Now I appreciate being in a better position. And there are still the same people working where I started. They were always blaming someone else for there plight. If you want to work, people will see that and appreciate it and help you. If you want a free handout, you will get only the minimum. Like someone else said in another post, we are also taking jobs from other countries. This too will balance itself out with relatively small adjustments by our government. We don't need any liberal knee-jerk legislation to save us just yet!

[Argo 8]

I love the "would rather live off of someone else" quotes. Hate to keep harping on this, but I'll give you an example of why I think that idea is crap.

In less than a month, around 220 employee's will be laid off because "our"(that's right our's, because some of us have been loyal to this place for as much as 33 years) will be sent to the Chinese, who will work for $0.40 cents an hour. Any of you motivation speakers that would like to come talk to these guys about "living off of someone else" can be arranged. I would love for you to tell these guys they shouldn't take part in the TRA. Tell these guys they shouldn't draw their umemployment for two years while getting their retraining(college) paid for. You see, they have to be a full time student. Please come tell these guys that they should be able to take a lower paying job working 40 hours a week until something better comes open. Here in Gadsden, the average job pays around 8 dollars an hour. On 40 hours thats 320 dollars per week. Take out taxes and that 220 dollars per week. Take out gas and the daycare fee and that's around 150 dollars a week. Wait a minute, that's about 60 dollars less than the 210 a week from umemployment and TRA.

For those of you who don't know, AAA is a pottery plant. We cast everything but the bathtub. We were told that they are shutting the plant down because the chinese can work for .40 cents an hour. Even if we offered to drop to that pay, they would still go overseas because they don't have to offer the benefits(that we american workers take for granted) and they won't have to pay government taxes and OSHA fees in China. Thanks for the dedication and have a nice day. What about a severance package? Nope. What about the vacation we earned last year? Maybe. That is what we were told by the Vice President of gerber pottery.

Anyways, I'll be sure to go back and tell our workers that they shouldn't be lazy and live off of the government. As someone stated earlier, wal-mart's hiring!!

[TitanTiger 21,068]

tidefan, no one is saying that your situation doesn't suck. But you gripe and complain about this situation but offer no real solution...and if you think there is a simple one to be had, you're dreaming. We discussed this in another thread already. There is no easy way to address this situation.

If you slap tariffs on goods imported to the US, you piss off numerous countries and risk retaliatory tariffs being slapped on US goods. That hurts American businesses and would affect jobs.

If you try to force countries like China to put in US-style worker safety laws, environmental protections, and so on, you would still not even the playing field because Chinese workers don't need to make the kind of salary a US worker does to have a good standard of living over there. So you've managed to raise the costs of goods to the American people, but these countries like China will still have a cost advantage over American plants and keep most of their business. How does that help things?

Plus, if you don't get the rest of the world to enact the same kinds of requirements, they will simply use the opening we provide to move in and gain footholds for their own companies that the US is abandoning by making these requirements.

What exactly do you propose to do to solve the problem? And how would you deal with the fact that doing any or all of these things would raise the costs of all kinds of goods across the board for our citizens? So now, everyone makes the same amount of money but their money doesn't go as far anymore because everything they use costs more. I'm just curious.

[CCTAU 3,470]

I love the "would rather live off of someone else" quotes. Hate to keep harping on this, but I'll give you an example of why I think that idea is crap.

In less than a month, around 220 employee's will be laid off because "our"(that's right our's, because some of us have been loyal to this place for as much as 33 years) will be sent to the Chinese, who will work for $0.40 cents an hour. Any of you motivation speakers that would like to come talk to these guys about "living off of someone else" can be arranged. I would love for you to tell these guys they shouldn't take part in the TRA. Tell these guys they shouldn't draw their umemployment for two years while getting their retraining(college) paid for. You see, they have to be a full time student. Please come tell these guys that they should be able to take a lower paying job working 40 hours a week until something better comes open. Here in Gadsden, the average job pays around 8 dollars an hour. On 40 hours thats 320 dollars per week. Take out taxes and that 220 dollars per week. Take out gas and the daycare fee and that's around 150 dollars a week. Wait a minute, that's about 60 dollars less than the 210 a week from umemployment and TRA.

For those of you who don't know, AAA is a pottery plant. We cast everything but the bathtub. We were told that they are shutting the plant down because the chinese can work for .40 cents an hour. Even if we offered to drop to that pay, they would still go overseas because they don't have to offer the benefits(that we american workers take for granted) and they won't have to pay government taxes and OSHA fees in China. Thanks for the dedication and have a nice day. What about a severance package? Nope. What about the vacation we earned last year? Maybe. That is what we were told by the Vice President of gerber pottery.

Anyways, I'll be sure to go back and tell our workers that they shouldn't be lazy and live off of the government. As someone stated earlier, wal-mart's hiring!!

Nobody said these things are good. But they happen all the time all over the US and have been for a long time now. Ever heard of steel mills, paper mills, textile mills, auto plants. So now just cause it happens close to you its different. Sometimes in life, you have to change. We aren't saying don't take your unemployment. We are saying don't take it while sitting on your butt. Retraining (college) is the right thing to do. Sitting around till they come get your furniture piece by piece is not. We won't have to give a motivational speach to any of your employees. It's called life. Some will make it, some won't. You can't carry everyone. And why is it that these people deserve loyalty? You will learn, if not from this???, that loyalty has BEEN a thing of the past between employees and employers for a long time. That's why you should always be learning something new or at least growing what you already know. Remember this: THE GRAVY TRAIN WILL ALWAYS RUN OUR OF FUEL AT SOME POINT IN TIME.

This is sad, but don't try to turn it on us, or Bush. I don't even know how to make pottery!!!!!!

I hope everyone makes out.

[channonc 466]

I love the "would rather live off of someone else" quotes. Hate to keep harping on this, but I'll give you an example of why I think that idea is crap.

In less than a month, around 220 employee's will be laid off because "our"(that's right our's, because some of us have been loyal to this place for as much as 33 years) will be sent to the Chinese, who will work for $0.40 cents an hour. Any of you motivation speakers that would like to come talk to these guys about "living off of someone else" can be arranged. I would love for you to tell these guys they shouldn't take part in the TRA. Tell these guys they shouldn't draw their umemployment for two years while getting their retraining(college) paid for. You see, they have to be a full time student. Please come tell these guys that they should be able to take a lower paying job working 40 hours a week until something better comes open. Here in Gadsden, the average job pays around 8 dollars an hour. On 40 hours thats 320 dollars per week. Take out taxes and that 220 dollars per week. Take out gas and the daycare fee and that's around 150 dollars a week. Wait a minute, that's about 60 dollars less than the 210 a week from umemployment and TRA.

For those of you who don't know, AAA is a pottery plant. We cast everything but the bathtub. We were told that they are shutting the plant down because the chinese can work for .40 cents an hour. Even if we offered to drop to that pay, they would still go overseas because they don't have to offer the benefits(that we american workers take for granted) and they won't have to pay government taxes and OSHA fees in China. Thanks for the dedication and have a nice day. What about a severance package? Nope. What about the vacation we earned last year? Maybe. That is what we were told by the Vice President of gerber pottery.

Anyways, I'll be sure to go back and tell our workers that they shouldn't be lazy and live off of the government. As someone stated earlier, wal-mart's hiring!!

Tidefan-- I have tried to say this very thing before during the FT discussion. But it fell on deaf ears.

[TitanTiger 21,068]

You know, as someone else said, this also works in reverse. There are people in Japan upset that their jobs are being exported...to the US, because Toyota, Honda, and Nissan are building more and more plants over here and hiring Americans to work in them. Same thing in S. Korea...or is that Hyundai plant going in outside of Montgomery just a mirage?

Workers in Germany are complaining that their jobs are being exported...again to the US, because Mercedes and BMW have built and are considering building more plants in the US.

Protectionism is going the way of the dinosaur and there really isn't a thing one country can do about it alone.

[Argo 8]

Titan, the only solution that I know of is to quit bargin shopping. Quit damanding cheaper products, and the companies will not have to look for sweatshops in china to make a profit. I'm guilty of this just as most of everyone else. My point is, not everyone living off of the government is doing it because they don't want to work. Some of these guys are so broke down from laboring at this place, they can't pass a physical like I can. Some of these guys are in their 50's and are not going to be hired because of their age and health. I don't see the problem in them going to school and drawing from the unemployment and the TRA that they've paid for over the last 30 years.

CCTAU, I'm not sure what you mean by the gravy train will run out some time or later. Making pottery is no gravy train, and that is my point. These guys have been willing to work for this many years, and for some this is all they know. Some people think we have our hand out and don't want to work. That is not the case. The retraining is there and I don't see anything wrong with taking it.

EDIT IN- I'm not taking a political stand against Bush. Sorry if I came off that way.

[TitanTiger 21,068]

tidefan, you're going to get people to quit bargain shopping the day monkeys fly out of my butt. And won't higher priced products hit the working poor the hardest?

[Argo 8]

I know it's not going to happen. You asked for a solution, and that's all I got.

I have no solution for the NAFTA complaints, not without starving out the rest of the world. I should have made my point more blunt. I will, just as I expect my co-workers, to take the TRA training. It just touched a nerve when someone said

Too many times there are jobs out there for people to take, it's just easier to live off someone else for a while.

[Tiger Al 0]

I know it's not going to happen. You asked for a solution, and that's all I got.

I have no solution for the NAFTA complaints, not without starving out the rest of the world. I should have made my point more blunt. I will, just as I expect my co-workers, to take the TRA training. It just touched a nerve when someone said

Too many times there are jobs out there for people to take, it's just easier to live off someone else for a while.

tidefan, it's easier to lump everyone into the category of 'lazy' than anything else. It makes any form of taxation or government program easier to hate if you believe that its' recipients are all lazy, worthless people who got what was coming to them.

[TitanTiger 21,068]

Al, I and a lot of conservatives I know don't fit this strawman you've set up. In fact, I'm all in favor of retraining programs that help people get back to work. That's not an indicator of laziness to me.

Generation after generation in a family of being on welfare...that gets my "laziness antenna" to go up somewhat.