TitanTiger 21,583 Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 No, I mean this: The US puts in place new requirements for these countries like China to do all the things you've mentioned (worker safety, envirnonmental issues, etc.). But Russia or Japan or Hong Kong or [insert country here] decides that instead of also making China do those thing to sell goods in their country, they'll use this opportunity to increase their presense in the Chinese labor market. They go to China and say, "We'll make you a deal. We won't put those onerous requirements on you if you allow our companies to come in and..." You see what I'm saying. Unless you can get every legitimately competing country to require the same things of China that you're proposing, it won't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Al 0 Posted February 12, 2004 Author Share Posted February 12, 2004 No, I mean this: The US puts in place new requirements for these countries like China to do all the things you've mentioned (worker safety, envirnonmental issues, etc.). But Russia or Japan or Hong Kong or [insert country here] decides that instead of also making China do those thing to sell goods in their country, they'll use this opportunity to increase their presense in the Chinese labor market. They go to China and say, "We'll make you a deal. We won't put those onerous requirements on you if you allow our companies to come in and..." You see what I'm saying. Unless you can get every legitimately competing country to require the same things of China that you're proposing, it won't work. Then all of the other industrialized countries who are interested in doing the right thing pressure those countries to come around via tariffs, etc. or simply not importing their products at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TitanTiger 21,583 Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 Don't get me wrong. If we could all agree on a basic set of standards regarding worker safety, environmental protection (and no, I'm not talking about Kyoto style, pseudo-science aimed at primarily weighing down US industry), and other labor issues, then it seems like a great plan. I just think it would end up being like trying to herd cats. It would break down and not end up solving anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny AU-92 0 Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 Then all of the other industrialized countries who are interested in doing the right thing pressure those countries to come around via tariffs, etc. or simply not importing their products at all. Here's a list of all those countries who are interested in doing the right thing, alphabetically: :roll: :roll: :roll: Al, this is in the same line of thinking as "We will work with the UN to make Sadaam go away so our allies will be happy and the world can live in harmony and unity and brotherly love...". Yeah, right. Our good buddies the French and Germans would JUMP at a chance to undercut us in trade with a country such as China. Pressure from them? Fat chance. I agree with Titan - how in the world are we supposed to "make" China or any other country toe the US line when it comes to wages, standards, etc.? The libs scream about the US being imperialistic when it comes to military action, but then think it is okay to cram US labor standards down the throats of other countries? channon, in my using the word "compensation", I was including benefits, etc. I never said we weren't better off, but I also feel very strongly that most unions have outlived their purpose, and do more harm than good. There is very little left in terms of improvements to the workplace standards that have not already been met - we have actually had this debate on the board before, so I won't go there again, but needless to say I think they are nothing more than a political machine that does its members more harm than good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CCTAU 3,658 Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 Like everyone else, politicians grow fat and lazy with power. Bush and the republicans have held power so long they feel bullet proof and invisible. Granted, he has served during a time of great stress and change, but the same old "Reaganomics" won't work. To export jobs to foreign countries just to remain competetive (or so they say), along with unrestricted entry by Mexican citizens, and others is destroying our country. This, combined with an extremely liberal supreme court, will finish the job if we don't take the country back. Just my thoughts. Are you willing to take a job cleaning toilets???? didn't think so. Somebody has to do it. But its beneath our society. The jobs being taken arre not being filled by lazy-ass Americans anyway. i'm sorry that you are losing your job to someone over-seas, but that, unfortuantely, is how free enterprise works. Yes, it can be tweaked, but it take a while to figure out how to tweak it. If this were a truly just world, CCT, then you'd get to be on the receiving end of your compassion. Ahh but see, I made sure I had enough skills to never be pigeon-holed into one industry unless I choose it. Those who choose poorly, live with the consequences. I grew up in a mill family watching guys worry about if they would always have that job because they didn't prepare for anything else. My statements were mainly about the mexicans coming in and doing jobs. It is the concensus of most non-ignorant people that they are not taking the white-collar CEO jobs. They are doing what our welfare rats won't. Now I know I just said something bad about your welfare buddies. But hey, if they won't work, somebody will. As far as jobs leaving the country, the job market is like the stock market. It will right itself without major intervention. And if you had botherd to try and understand the second part of my statement, you would have seen that I am all for a few suttle changes in how we handle this. But just like a liberal moron, you want to go and have knee-jerk reactions to the situation and legislate world equality. One of the best things the government did when the stock market fell was to make small changes. Not the huge legislative measures that the libbies wanted. So, in a truly just world, you would be my servant! and prolly not a very good one at that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKW 86 7,969 Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 Guys, as you read this, their are Japanese workers unemployed because of....American Workers. Just check out the Honda Plant. Or the Nissan Plant. Or the Toyota Plants. ETC. German Workers are unemployed because of...American Workers. Did you know we have Mercedes and BMW plants here in the US? Did you know that most of these plants are expanding? Why are some closing while others expand? I think it is just the Unionized companies that are in trouble. The non-Unionized employees make great wages and dont have to screw around with a shop steward, etc. Funny, but there are successes out there and yet Chrysler just laid off 55k. Think people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
channonc 466 Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 What you just described is trade amongst industrialized countries. China is our biggest threat and has one of the biggest problem with child labor and harsh working conditions. Be careful in comparing apples to oranges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Al 0 Posted February 12, 2004 Author Share Posted February 12, 2004 I agree with Titan - how in the world are we supposed to "make" China or any other country toe the US line when it comes to wages, standards, etc.? You don't do business with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny AU-92 0 Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 I agree with Titan - how in the world are we supposed to "make" China or any other country toe the US line when it comes to wages, standards, etc.? You don't do business with them. Fine - then just like Titan said, the rest of the world rushes in to fill the trade gap, China still gets everything it wants without changing one iota of its policies, and American companies go down the tubes, because we aren't selling to one of the largest markets in the world. Your idea looks great on paper, but this utopian theory only works if all the other countries genuinely support one another. We know for a fact that they don't. A global isolation of China would never get off the drawing board. We couldn't even trust our good buddies the French not to sell Sadaam Hussein weapons and other items in violation of sanctions ISSUED AND SUPPORTED by the UN. What in the world makes you think they would isolate China? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Al 0 Posted February 12, 2004 Author Share Posted February 12, 2004 because we aren't selling to one of the largest markets in the world. It then comes down to 'who needs who?' I'll guarantee you we import more from China than we export to them. Why is it logical to 'persuade' a country become a democracy but not to 'persuade' them abide by minimal labor standards if they want to do business with the largest consumers in the world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarolinaTiger 0 Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 what are we arguing over here??? or 'discussing'??? imposing tariffs? is that it? ct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CCTAU 3,658 Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 what are we arguing over here??? or 'discussing'???imposing tariffs? is that it? ct NAH. Whether or not we are gonna have microwaves in the future. After we impose tarriffs, we'll never get any new ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
channonc 466 Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 Jenny, you forget that we have one of the biggest economies in the world. We tend to set the bar on this type of stuff. You seem to forget that it is a big deal to lose a FT agreement with the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny AU-92 0 Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 Jenny, you forget that we have one of the biggest economies in the world. We tend to set the bar on this type of stuff. You seem to forget that it is a big deal to lose a FT agreement with the US. No, I am totally aware that we are one of, if not the biggest, and that no nation wants to lose a FT agreement with us. But reality is that despite all the utopian dreaming, there is NO WAY the US would EVER tell China to either shape up or we don't let you import your stuff anymore! Even Tienamen Square did not do it. And now China has the Olympics! The days of using a big stick on them are over. We have zero true leverage to be setting any bars. We also need them as an ally in that region too badly to risk pissing them off over human rights abuses. Wasn't the EU formed to create a huge trading entity as well? My other point was that we are not the only ones that would be glad to have a FT agreement with China, and as long as there is someone out there willing to buy from them with no regard for their politics, China will be just fine, with or without us. Why is it logical to 'persuade' a country become a democracy but not to 'persuade' them abide by minimal labor standards if they want to do business with the largest consumers in the world Because the country we headed towards democracy was a third or fourth world dictatorship, not a fully industrialized world power. Apples and oranges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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