Any one looking forward to the debates?

[Tiger Al 0]

I'm not really interested in getting in the middle of this back-and-forth but I will make a couple points:

1) I found the picture to be more amusing than disrespecting and to be a reinforcement of my opinion about this President - that is, he is a dunce in the spotlight and a clown on the world stage, who has clearly been in over his head from the get go.

You're right. I think TexasTiger probably nailed it. Bush is simply unaware of any perspective other than his own which goes a long way in explaining why he's been such a disaster. The picture and the flag tapping are simply evidence of his lack of awareness, either for proper protocol or the probability that people are watching him in public. However, the signing of the flag and the standing on it lead me to this:

2) Any and all discussion about Obama "not being patriotic" because of a flag pin, salutation of the flag, etc., is boiler plate opposition nonsense that has been debunked numerous times on this board alone. Continuing to put forth these fallacies only shows the opiner's own ignorance. If you don't like Obama fine but to spread this propoganda - especially as a way to defend Bush really shows the limitations of an ability to make a rational argument on valid points.

As I said before, when you tell others that they should respect the flag and you push for an amendment to criminally punish those that desecrate the flag and you're the President of the United States, it matters. However, this exercise was primarily meant to show just how far some here will go to excuse one person while resorting to demogoguery to convict another.

In predictable Pavlovian response, two clear violations of the Flag Code are either dismissed as no big deal or "excused" by attempting to switch attention to flag pins. We're told ad nauseum how the republican party is head and shoulders above the "democrat" party and, yet, when they're shown to be in the wrong their first response is to show how someone else is wrong, too.

If a President Gore or Kerry or Obama had done the things with the flag that Bush did, we'd have multiple threads about it here and Fox would've been in overdrive to work a comment about it into their weather report. Just last night on Hannity and colmes, Karl Rove and Hannity were STILL talking about...flag pins. Ironically, neither of them were wearing a flag pin but still mentioned how "suspicious" it was that Obama didn't.

[Tiger Al 0]

As for the signature..............WHAT A REACH! I guess when the wind blows in the opposite direction, the flag is no longer accurate?

No, it's not inaccurate. The union (blue field with stars) must be at the top and adjacent to the staff, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property, in which case the union may be down. The way it's being displayed in the photo is incorrect and it's kind of a pet peeve of mine. I went into a bar once and saw the flag hanging vertically on the wall with the union in the top right corner. I made them fix it. Like I said, it's a pet peeve.

Pray tell, where is the staff in the pic? Look at any baseball game when the wind is blowing towards left field and you see that side of the flag from behind homeplate. Talking about making a mountain out of a molehill…

When a flag is flying on a staff or pole, it doesn't matter which way it's facing as long as it's attached to the halyard or pole correctly. When it's displayed in other ways, i.e. on a wall, it's displayed as I said above. In the photo, Bush is holding it up for display in which case he acts as the wall and, as such, it's displayed backwards. His wife correctly pointed this out.

[OldNewby 27]

[Tiger Al 0]

Yes. That's how he should've done it.

[OldNewby 27]

Yes. That's how he should've done it.

Good to know. I'll tell him next time we do lunch.

[TexasTiger 14,070]

If you don't worship Bush, T88 and the other Bushbots accuse you of hating their idol.

You say you don't hate bush. Your actions say a different thing, you are kidding yourself here. Whether you do or don't is really insignificant anyways.

[autigeremt 7,133]

Yes. That's how he should've done it.

Tiger Al..... for someone who feels so strongly about the flag (I actually like it), I find it hard to believe you would support a man who wants to defame the integrity of this nation by supporting programs and policy that are a total 180 of what this country was founded on. Socialism and wealth re-distribution is in no way and American ideal.

With all do respect, and I mean all due respect, I have a hard time with those who get behind a person of such a mentality. It's hard to imagine as a person who believes in less government and more personal responsibility. I have issues with GWB and the current GOP because of this, and that's why I consider myself an independent. McCain has proven to be a more centered man, and I feel more comfortable with him as a leader because of it.

[AUTiger1 0]

If you don't worship Bush, T88 and the other Bushbots accuse you of hating their idol.

You say you don't hate bush. Your actions say a different thing, you are kidding yourself here. Whether you do or don't is really insignificant anyways.

Sort of like some people do on this board when you don't worship Obama?

[tiger88 934]

If you don't worship Bush, T88 and the other Bushbots accuse you of hating their idol.

You say you don't hate bush. Your actions say a different thing, you are kidding yourself here. Whether you do or don't is really insignificant anyways.

If it walks like a duck and sounds like a duck, then it is a duck.

If I'm a bushbot, you're a messiahbot, and I'm rubber and you're glue.....

[AUBURNTIGERFAN 0]

I'm ready for the debates! I am also ready for Auburn football!

War Damn Eagle?

[jw 4 au 526]

As for the signature..............WHAT A REACH! I guess when the wind blows in the opposite direction, the flag is no longer accurate?

No, it's not inaccurate. The union (blue field with stars) must be at the top and adjacent to the staff, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property, in which case the union may be down. The way it's being displayed in the photo is incorrect and it's kind of a pet peeve of mine. I went into a bar once and saw the flag hanging vertically on the wall with the union in the top right corner. I made them fix it. Like I said, it's a pet peeve.

Pray tell, where is the staff in the pic? Look at any baseball game when the wind is blowing towards left field and you see that side of the flag from behind homeplate. Talking about making a mountain out of a molehill…

When a flag is flying on a staff or pole, it doesn't matter which way it's facing as long as it's attached to the halyard or pole correctly. When it's displayed in other ways, i.e. on a wall, it's displayed as I said above. In the photo, Bush is holding it up for display in which case he acts as the wall and, as such, it's displayed backwards. His wife correctly pointed this out.

Tiger Al, this may sting a little bit after all your hot air, but after I read the rules like you suggested you are not factually correct. You are only interpreting the rules to fit your "put Bush down at all times" agenda. Technically, there is nothing wrong with the way he is holding the flag. There is no specific rule for when a person is displaying or holding up a non-staffed flag, other than it shouldn't be upside down (unless he is in distress). The rule quoted below best represents Bush's situation where the public can see it from both directions, of which you would need to know the direction he was facing to be factually correct.

When displayed over a street or sidewalk, where it can be seen from either side, be sure the union is to the north on an east-west street, and to the east on a north-south street. The same directions apply in a building lobby or corridor with entrances to the east and west or north and south.

http://www.vfw.org/index.cfm?fa=cmty.leveld&did=2479

So, there is a 50/50 chance he is correct. If he is facing south or east, he is correct! You are correct if he was displaying it on a wall though, but he's not. Furthermore, I also found only one recommendation about carrying the flag that supports Bush's display "Carry it horizontally, but always aloft", which Bush is doing. Is that a vacuum I hear, or are you too proud to admit you may be wrong in the most "splitting of hairs to support your anti-Bush agenda" type of way?

[Tiger Al 0]

Tiger Al, this may sting a little bit after all your hot air, but after I read the rules like you suggested you are not factually correct. You are only interpreting the rules to fit your "put Bush down at all times" agenda. Technically, there is nothing wrong with the way he is holding the flag. There is no specific rule for when a person is displaying or holding up a non-staffed flag, other than it shouldn't be upside down (unless he is in distress). The rule quoted below best represents Bush's situation where the public can see it from both directions, of which you would need to know the direction he was facing to be factually correct.

When displayed over a street or sidewalk, where it can be seen from either side, be sure the union is to the north on an east-west street, and to the east on a north-south street. The same directions apply in a building lobby or corridor with entrances to the east and west or north and south.

http://www.vfw.org/index.cfm?fa=cmty.leveld&did=2479

So, there is a 50/50 chance he is correct. If he is facing south or east, he is correct! You are correct if he was displaying it on a wall though, but he's not. Furthermore, I also found only one recommendation about carrying the flag that supports Bush's display "Carry it horizontally, but always aloft", which Bush is doing. Is that a vacuum I hear, or are you too proud to admit you may be wrong in the most "splitting of hairs to support your anti-Bush agenda" type of way?

I have no problem admitting I'm wrong...when I'm wrong. This is not one of those times. You are right in that there is not a rule that specifically addresses holding a non-staffed flag at a sporting event. Contrary to your belief, the rule you quoted does not best represent the situation in the photo, as it wasn't hung across a street which is why the north-south, east-west part is there. A common theme in the flag code is that of perspective. Bush was displaying the flag and, as such, the perspective of those in front of him is the determining factor. The rule that would most closely correspond to this is Section 7-i which says: When displayed either horizontally or vertically against a wall, the union should be uppermost and to the flag's own right, that is, to the observer's left. When displayed in a window, the flag should be displayed in the same way, with the union or blue field to the left of the observer in the street. When I said earlier that Bush was acting as the wall, that wasn't fully correct because I failed to take into consideration that people were behind him. He would more closely be like the window, but he's still holding it incorrectly because of the direction he's facing.

[jw 4 au 526]

Tiger Al, this may sting a little bit after all your hot air, but after I read the rules like you suggested you are not factually correct. You are only interpreting the rules to fit your "put Bush down at all times" agenda. Technically, there is nothing wrong with the way he is holding the flag. There is no specific rule for when a person is displaying or holding up a non-staffed flag, other than it shouldn't be upside down (unless he is in distress). The rule quoted below best represents Bush's situation where the public can see it from both directions, of which you would need to know the direction he was facing to be factually correct.

When displayed over a street or sidewalk, where it can be seen from either side, be sure the union is to the north on an east-west street, and to the east on a north-south street. The same directions apply in a building lobby or corridor with entrances to the east and west or north and south.

http://www.vfw.org/index.cfm?fa=cmty.leveld&did=2479

So, there is a 50/50 chance he is correct. If he is facing south or east, he is correct! You are correct if he was displaying it on a wall though, but he's not. Furthermore, I also found only one recommendation about carrying the flag that supports Bush's display "Carry it horizontally, but always aloft", which Bush is doing. Is that a vacuum I hear, or are you too proud to admit you may be wrong in the most "splitting of hairs to support your anti-Bush agenda" type of way?

I have no problem admitting I'm wrong...when I'm wrong. This is not one of those times. You are right in that there is not a rule that specifically addresses holding a non-staffed flag at a sporting event. Contrary to your belief, the rule you quoted does not best represent the situation in the photo, as it wasn't hung across a street which is why the north-south, east-west part is there. A common theme in the flag code is that of perspective. Bush was displaying the flag and, as such, the perspective of those in front of him is the determining factor. The rule that would most closely correspond to this is Section 7-i which says: When displayed either horizontally or vertically against a wall, the union should be uppermost and to the flag's own right, that is, to the observer's left. When displayed in a window, the flag should be displayed in the same way, with the union or blue field to the left of the observer in the street. When I said earlier that Bush was acting as the wall, that wasn't fully correct because I failed to take into consideration that people were behind him. He would more closely be like the window, but he's still holding it incorrectly because of the direction he's facing.

Well, he is certainly not a window displaying towards a street either. I read a rule about when wearing the flag, the stars should be positioned towards the heart. Bush is clearly and simply trying to follow the intent of this part of the code. I also found this. In this specific case, wouldn't this section trump all other rules?

§10. Modification of rules and customs by President

Any rule or custom pertaining to the display of the flag of the United States of America, set forth herein, may be altered, modified, or repealed, or additional rules with respect thereto may be prescribed, by the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States, whenever he deems it to be appropriate or desirable; and any such alteration or additional rule shall be set forth in a proclamation

TigerAl, although I disagree with your one-sided political philosophy on everything ( ), I have actually enjoyed learning about proper flag code. I learned about some things I have actually done wrong in the past. I actaully read that I need to burn all my old tee-shirts with flags on them when they fade rather than simply through them away.

[Tiger Al 0]

Well, he is certainly not a window displaying towards a street either. I read a rule about when wearing the flag, the stars should be positioned towards the heart. Bush is clearly and simply trying to follow the intent of this part of the code.

Except that he's not wearing it. Again, he's displaying it and the union should be in his right hand.

I also found this. In this specific case, wouldn't this section trump all other rules?

§10. Modification of rules and customs by President

Any rule or custom pertaining to the display of the flag of the United States of America, set forth herein, may be altered, modified, or repealed, or additional rules with respect thereto may be prescribed, by the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States, whenever he deems it to be appropriate or desirable; and any such alteration or additional rule shall be set forth in a proclamation

Was it set forth in a proclamation?

TigerAl, although I disagree with your one-sided political philosophy on everything ( ), I have actually enjoyed learning about proper flag code. I learned about some things I have actually done wrong in the past. I actaully read that I need to burn all my old tee-shirts with flags on them when they fade rather than simply through them away.

Then you probably also learned that you shouldn't buy clothes with the flag on them anymore, right?

[Auburn85 436]

i think the debates are going to be pretty pointless this year. mccain can't do anything. of course i'll still end up watching. only thing mccain can try to do is bring a bigger bag of goodies to american than obama with the closest debate to halloween.

i mean afterall, mccain's not going to lower taxes as low as obama.

mccain isn't going to raise taxes on those who should pay their fair share

mccain isn't proposing universal healthcare

mccain, the more you look at him is even looking like Bush. I mean, it's totally like that movie Face/off it's so creepy

it's obama's to lose, it's not mccain's to win.

[jw 4 au 526]

Except that he's not wearing it. Again, he's displaying it and the union should be in his right hand.

And he is still not a window...so we can agree to disagree.

Was it set forth in a proclamation?

Could have been, you don't know what he said to the girl that is leaning forward. Like "Hey, watch me mess with all those libs by waving this flag in a manner not specifically described by the Flag Code. I proclaim the waving of American flags simply horizontal with the union up at the Olympics A-OK!"

Then you probably also learned that you shouldn't buy clothes with the flag on them anymore, right?

I didn't see it say not to buy clothing with flags on them, just to dispose of them in an honorable manner. I may be wrong though, I can see the quagmire of throwing your shirt in the dirty clothes bin. I would suspect over 80% or more of Americans own an article of clothing with a flag of some sort on them. My 5 year old some has a shirt from Gap with the flag on it.

Alright, highjacking this thread was great while it lasted. I am looking forward to the debates. I don't think McCain will be as easy on Obama as Clinton and Edwards were. Too bad Obama's advisors kept him out of the proposed Town Hall meetings. Same smart guys that told him to "Show them the money!"

[TheDrewYouKnew 3]

More emotional moments with Bush and the US flag.

LINK

It is sad that people put that much effort into making a video where he did nothing wrong. And even more pathetic that you use that trash to try to take a shot at him. Grow up. He, like real Americans, loves this country. The flag is a symbol of this country and we generally try to treat it with respect, but it is a symbol only. If you drop it you do not have to kill yourself. Just pick the damn thing up. And I would love to have gotten him to sign one of those little flags for me. At least your beloved Barrack Hussein wont have to worry about such a video since he is ashamed to be near a flag. We should be ashamed of every "American" who casts a vote for the man.

If you believe he did nothing wrong, I'd suggest you read the flag code.

You know what you can do with your silly little flag code?

[TheDrewYouKnew 3]

Just pick the damn thing up.

Drew damns Old Glory.

Nice to see my stalker is still out there. But to play your game, yes damn the flag if you want. It is only a symbol. You people are acting like idiots about it. We all try to show that symbol some respect, but what yall are talking about is stupid. Get a life. This thread is garbage like everything you dims try to do.

[Tiger Al 0]

More emotional moments with Bush and the US flag.

LINK

It is sad that people put that much effort into making a video where he did nothing wrong. And even more pathetic that you use that trash to try to take a shot at him. Grow up. He, like real Americans, loves this country. The flag is a symbol of this country and we generally try to treat it with respect, but it is a symbol only. If you drop it you do not have to kill yourself. Just pick the damn thing up. And I would love to have gotten him to sign one of those little flags for me. At least your beloved Barrack Hussein wont have to worry about such a video since he is ashamed to be near a flag. We should be ashamed of every "American" who casts a vote for the man.

If you believe he did nothing wrong, I'd suggest you read the flag code.

You know what you can do with your silly little flag code?

I know what I'd like to do with it if you'll comply.

[TheDrewYouKnew 3]

More emotional moments with Bush and the US flag.

LINK

It is sad that people put that much effort into making a video where he did nothing wrong. And even more pathetic that you use that trash to try to take a shot at him. Grow up. He, like real Americans, loves this country. The flag is a symbol of this country and we generally try to treat it with respect, but it is a symbol only. If you drop it you do not have to kill yourself. Just pick the damn thing up. And I would love to have gotten him to sign one of those little flags for me. At least your beloved Barrack Hussein wont have to worry about such a video since he is ashamed to be near a flag. We should be ashamed of every "American" who casts a vote for the man.

If you believe he did nothing wrong, I'd suggest you read the flag code.

You know what you can do with your silly little flag code?

I know what I'd like to do with it if you'll comply.

Hypocrite

[tiger88 934]

For real.tigeral pretends to show such great respect for the flag code then offers to shove it up someones butt. I'd say shoving the flag code up someones butt is much more disrespectful for the flag in general than anything GWB did.

Of course he doesn't really buy into what he was selling he just saw an opportunity to take a swipe at GWB and took it. Partisan politics at its worst. How very shameful. I'd say to use the flag to take an unfounded swipe at a president is pretty disgusting.

[Tiger Al 0]

For real.tigeral pretends to show such great respect for the flag code then offers to shove it up someones butt. I'd say shoving the flag code up someones butt is much more disrespectful for the flag in general than anything GWB did.

Of course he doesn't really buy into what he was selling he just saw an opportunity to take a swipe at GWB and took it. Partisan politics at its worst. How very shameful. I'd say to use the flag to take an unfounded swipe at a president is pretty disgusting.

You've made an assumption. You tried to make an ass out of me, but, succeeded in making one of yourself. You projected your meaning of what I said onto me. That seems to be your standard reaction. You saw an opportunity for malice on my part and assumed that I meant what you would've meant. I'm sorry to have let you down.

If Drew would've complied, what I would've liked to have done with it is have him actually read it and maybe get a sense of what the flag means. While it's just a damn symbol to him, it's a pretty damn important one and, as such, maybe he'd realize the carelessness and disrespect our president showed it.

I expected too much.

[tiger88 934]

For real.tigeral pretends to show such great respect for the flag code then offers to shove it up someones butt. I'd say shoving the flag code up someones butt is much more disrespectful for the flag in general than anything GWB did.

Of course he doesn't really buy into what he was selling he just saw an opportunity to take a swipe at GWB and took it. Partisan politics at its worst. How very shameful. I'd say to use the flag to take an unfounded swipe at a president is pretty disgusting.

You've made an assumption. You tried to make an ass out of me, but, succeeded in making one of yourself. You projected your meaning of what I said onto me. That seems to be your standard reaction. You saw an opportunity for malice on my part and assumed that I meant what you would've meant. I'm sorry to have let you down.

If Drew would've complied, what I would've liked to have done with it is have him actually read it and maybe get a sense of what the flag means. While it's just a damn symbol to him, it's a pretty damn important one and, as such, maybe he'd realize the carelessness and disrespect our president showed it.

I expected too much.

We are all adults and know what you meant Al. I really can't tell how much of this response is tongue in cheek, but in the previously mentioned post you showed your true colors on this one, as I correctly pointed out.

[Tiger Al 0]

For real.tigeral pretends to show such great respect for the flag code then offers to shove it up someones butt. I'd say shoving the flag code up someones butt is much more disrespectful for the flag in general than anything GWB did.

Of course he doesn't really buy into what he was selling he just saw an opportunity to take a swipe at GWB and took it. Partisan politics at its worst. How very shameful. I'd say to use the flag to take an unfounded swipe at a president is pretty disgusting.

You've made an assumption. You tried to make an ass out of me, but, succeeded in making one of yourself. You projected your meaning of what I said onto me. That seems to be your standard reaction. You saw an opportunity for malice on my part and assumed that I meant what you would've meant. I'm sorry to have let you down.

If Drew would've complied, what I would've liked to have done with it is have him actually read it and maybe get a sense of what the flag means. While it's just a damn symbol to him, it's a pretty damn important one and, as such, maybe he'd realize the carelessness and disrespect our president showed it.

I expected too much.

We are all adults and know what you meant Al. I really can't tell how much of this response is tongue in cheek, but in the previously mentioned post you showed your true colors on this one, as I correctly pointed out.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

[tiger88 934]

For real.tigeral pretends to show such great respect for the flag code then offers to shove it up someones butt. I'd say shoving the flag code up someones butt is much more disrespectful for the flag in general than anything GWB did.

Of course he doesn't really buy into what he was selling he just saw an opportunity to take a swipe at GWB and took it. Partisan politics at its worst. How very shameful. I'd say to use the flag to take an unfounded swipe at a president is pretty disgusting.

You've made an assumption. You tried to make an ass out of me, but, succeeded in making one of yourself. You projected your meaning of what I said onto me. That seems to be your standard reaction. You saw an opportunity for malice on my part and assumed that I meant what you would've meant. I'm sorry to have let you down.

If Drew would've complied, what I would've liked to have done with it is have him actually read it and maybe get a sense of what the flag means. While it's just a damn symbol to him, it's a pretty damn important one and, as such, maybe he'd realize the carelessness and disrespect our president showed it.

I expected too much.

We are all adults and know what you meant Al. I really can't tell how much of this response is tongue in cheek, but in the previously mentioned post you showed your true colors on this one, as I correctly pointed out.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

I'm sure you are.