DKW 86 7,906 Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 Wind power generators killing birds, Activists want them halted. Called the Exxon-Valdez of the Environmental Movement Jeff Miller, of the Center for Biological Diversity (search), said the latest research indicates that one to two thousand or more birds are killed each year in the area. Included in the yearly death toll are approximately 60 golden eagles, 300 red-tailed hawks, and 270 burrowing owls. Dr. Dean wants to use wind for a power source. Unfortunately he knows so little about the Environment that he doesnt even know about the problems with wind generators. The state of Califronia recently locked the wind power farms so as to stop the bird killing. Evidently they got them runing again. If this guy is this uninformed how can he be fit to be President? Bet it gets ugly between him and the Environmentalists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarolinaTiger 0 Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 he's so insensitive to the environment...i bet they don't even have birds in vermont. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AURainman 6 Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 Wind power wont work. Its been around forever, and it still hasn't made it out of select locations. Its just not pratical. Perfect in theory. Disaster in practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Al 0 Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 You assume that he means to employ it without any changes. If we know that birds are killed then couldn't it be modified by putting a screen around it, like an indoor fan??? If this guy is this uninformed how can he be fit to be President? Two environmental groups are trying to stop the renewal of the windmills' permits to prevent more birds from dying in their blades. The Alameda County (search) zoning board renewed a batch of permits in November... I'll be watching the news for environmentally overinformed Dubya to put a stop to this. If he doesn't, David, will you admit that Bush is unfit to be president? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKW 86 7,906 Posted December 23, 2003 Author Share Posted December 23, 2003 You assume that he means to employ it without any changes. If we know that birds are killed then couldn't it be modified by putting a screen around it, like an indoor fan??? On the C-SPAN speech, he made no implication that he meant with guards etc in place. The question was even asked by one of the wup-wup crowd members, in otherwords by a campaign hack. My own feelings, I am always suspicious about Env issues with Dems. They are given a free pass by the Media even though many times they are completely ignorant of how Env. view them. Clinton was not a good Env governor because he proactively intervened for Tysons dumping chicken waste products into Ark rivers. He got a pass on it though from the media. He later tried to make amends with Env while he was President but only at the financial devastation of thousands in Utah and the Financial windfall of James Riatti, huge campaign donor. Two environmental groups are trying to stop the renewal of the windmills' permits to prevent more birds from dying in their blades. The Alameda County (search) zoning board renewed a batch of permits in November... I'll be watching the news for environmentally overinformed Dubya to put a stop to this. If he doesn't, David, will you admit that Bush is unfit to be president? Bush will never be openly judged to be a good Env President. He recently increased emission stds and was called a polluter because he didnt increase them enough. It will not matter to many on the Left anyway. The real narrow-minded in this country are on the Left, IMHO. Example: You can only be Pro-Choice as long as the choice is Abortion. The real crime of GWB is that his last name is BUSH and that Gore couldn't run a campaign to win his own home state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Al 0 Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 Nice moves, Fred Astaire. But you didn't answer my question. You claimed that because Dean is for windmills because he's so uninformed and therefore unfit to be president, then if Bush doesn't put a stop to the windmill license renewels, because they're wrong and he is very informed, will you then be willing to call him unfit to be president? Seems simple enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
War Eagle 96 10 Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 Nice moves, Fred Astaire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKW 86 7,906 Posted December 23, 2003 Author Share Posted December 23, 2003 Nice moves, Fred Astaire. But you didn't answer my question. You claimed that because Dean is for windmills because he's so uninformed and therefore unfit to be president, then if Bush doesn't put a stop to the windmill license renewels, because they're wrong and he is very informed, will you then be willing to call him unfit to be president? Seems simple enough. First, we dont have GWBs input here. So we must wait. Second, Ithink birds are great, eat them all the time. Except the Golden Eagles of course. Third, GWB isnt on C-SPAN telling everyone how great alternative power sources are going to be in the future. Dean obviously is reading the text here from his advisers because he didnt really do the research either. He was saying what he thought the crowd wanted to hear. No more. Bush, in my opinion is as good as reasonable Env will get. No Kyoto sell outs etc. But on the windmills he would likely say go with the guards, just as Dean will eventually say. Although research on the guards doesnt look that promising right now. Some say it restricts the flow too much, 20-30%. Other technologies are the Cousteau Wind generator. Think tall norrow pole with one open side and vaned shaft inside it. It would throw the birds out of it. I am definitely Env Friendly. I support the higher Cafe Stds for SUVs and I actually like what Dean said on the Energy up until he made the mis-step on the Windmills. I guess I have just gotten used to listening very intently to the details in Env Policy. The kooks are in the details. I really like Clark, however he doesnt have a prayer of winning due to inexperience with political cycles. I like most of his ideas. He is like me a lot on some topics, VA Hospitals and his view of NHC actually sounds doable. Unfortunately his plans go dead set against Dem Dogma and he will inevitably lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKW 86 7,906 Posted December 23, 2003 Author Share Posted December 23, 2003 Nice moves, Fred Astaire. Thank you...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Al 0 Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 So, if they don't go with guards in Alameda County where that've renewed the windmill licenses Bush will step in either to force them to use guards or to shut down the windmills. BUT, if he doesn't, he will be as uninformed as Dean, who you said was unfit to be president because of it. Will you then be willing to say that GWB is also unfit to be president??? Or, were you just posturing against Dean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigermike 3,729 Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 Maybe all the PETA folks should perch themselves on platforms in front of the windmills & wave flags to keep the birds out. They could prove they truly loved the birds and animals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TxWarEagle 3 Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 I am sure that the President of the USA will put a stop to this needless massacre of birds and put a halt to all wind-produced power. (watch for next story claiming "Bush puts brakes on Wind, to benefit his oil buddies") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKW 86 7,906 Posted December 23, 2003 Author Share Posted December 23, 2003 So, if they don't go with guards in Alameda County where that've renewed the windmill licenses Bush will step in either to force them to use guards or to shut down the windmills. BUT, if he doesn't, he will be as uninformed as Dean, who you said was unfit to be president because of it. Will you then be willing to say that GWB is also unfit to be president???Or, were you just posturing against Dean? No, Not having the political will to DO something, and NOT KNOWING what you are talking bout are two different things. Remember the thread startwed out as Dean Cant Read, or better Dean Should Have Read..... Before openinghis mouth and alientaing part of his base. TA, this all moot anyway. Dean is meeting Bush in Novenber. I just heard that he is building quite a lead in SC. It would be all over by SC if he wins there, NH and shows very well or wins Iowa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKW 86 7,906 Posted December 23, 2003 Author Share Posted December 23, 2003 I am sure that the President of the USA will put a stop to this needless massacre of birds and put a halt to all wind-produced power.(watch for next story claiming "Bush puts brakes on Wind, to benefit his oil buddies") TX is right here too. No matter what he does, GWB will be villified for it. Pick your headline: "Bush puts brakes on Wind, to benefit his oil buddies" "Bush advances energy policy in place of Saving Endangered Species." And so it goes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Al 0 Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 Well, David, I'm sure Howard Dean CAN read but he also knows about windmills, too. Vermont's Green Mountain Power created the Searsburg Wind Farm Project in 1997, when Dean was governer. Here's an excerpt from an article about that wind farm and birds: Each Zond Z-40FS wind turbine is mounted on a 40-meter-tall tubular steel tower that is supported by 200-ton concrete foundations. "We chose tubular towers rather than lattice-type towers for two reasons. First, maintenance workers can climb inside the 12-foot-diameter tubes without being exposed to the elements, and because the tubular towers provide little opportunity for birds to perch," said Bill Ralph, a mechanical engineer for Green Mountain Power. Dean looks out for the birds!!! Here's another article about 'birdkills' by windmills and it specifically talks about the windmills in Altamont Pass, which is in Alameda County. Here's an excerpt: A worst-case scenario where the kills are considered egregious is documented in a 1992 study of the old (1983-1985) turbines in the Altamont Pass area of California. In two years there were 183 birds found dead of which 119 were raptors [7]. Altamont Pass has 5,400 operating turbines. Researchers agree that the availability of prey in grass under the turbines supporting a large population of raptors is an important factor. The 60 foot open lattice towers provide ideal perching and the swing of the 30 foot blades [8] leave little room for soaring space between ground and bottom of blade arc. Fast rotating blades (72 RPM) exacerbate the problem [9]. From the Altamont case a perception of wind turbines as machines that kill birds has grown. However, data shows the actual numbers killed in the Altamont do not exceed one bird per turbine per year and rates of 0.05 raptors per turbine per year are reported [10]. To alleviate this problem perch guards are being installed and a program to replace the old machines, in a ratio of seven to one, with modern turbines on high monopoles is in the planning stage [9]. The Altamont is an entirely different situation than an ocean based wind farm. So, maybe Governer Dean DOES know a little about what he's talking about. Don't worry, Alameda County is fixing the problem so I doubt Bush will intervene. I never expected YOU to declare GWB unfit, anyway!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger12 53 Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 Speaking of environmentalists, Pen and Tiller did a show exposing tree huggers for what they really are- "joiners". They join those causes because they think it makes them heros, but never really research the causes. Case in point, the World Wildlife Fund states that nearly 300 species of animals becomes extinct every day which equals almost 50,000 a year. Of course when asked how in the world that many animals could becoming extinct and asked to name at least half of them, they could not. The president of one of the WWF then said "well, it is hard to put exact figures on it...". Can you say "nailed"!? Then they asked the spokeswoman of "Save the Rainforests" (or something like that) a bunch of simple questions, like "how exactly is the earth being negatively effected by the trees being cut down?". She could not come up with an answer. They asked a bunch of other simple questions that you would think she could answer, but she would just giggle and sit there with a dumb look on her face. This was the spokesperson for crying out loud. Guess that is what the get for choosing a 20 year old to speak for them. They talked about how alot of tree huggers despise technology and industry, but yet they use the internet and cell phones to communicate and promote their cause. They use paper for their pamphlets and flyers, but they are against logging. They interviewed a scientist about the logging issue, and he said what the environmentalists don't tell you is that the logging companies are the biggest supporters of the environment there is. They are the ones replanting trees and taking care of the wildlife, because without the forests, then the logging companies have no industry to make money with. Just food for thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKW 86 7,906 Posted December 24, 2003 Author Share Posted December 24, 2003 Well, I support WWF. They pretty good work. They are as little kooky as can found out there. Sierra Club? Joe Kennedy jr and friends have completely hijacked it for political capital. Almost noe of the founders are there anymore. They also promote Robert Redford and his silliness. Ted Danson predicted that all world oceans would be dead by 1995. :roll: I still like Nature Conservancy. They pool money and buy land to set aside for habitat. But they buy the land. No government needed although they do help in some ways. NPCA, Natl park Conservation Association, A little bit anti-Bush but just about as anti-Clinton too. Anyway, those are my three. Just to show you that I do have a real stake in the Env side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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