Vs Mizzou Post Game

[woodford 3,793]

1 hour ago, KansasTiger said:

But muh recruiting! Won't make a hill of beans difference since talent isn't why we keep losing.

The talent composite index is a lot like the laws of economics. You can disagree with it all you want, but in the end it is reality. 

[KansasTiger 3,368]

4 minutes ago, woodford said:

The talent composite index is a lot like the laws of economics. You can disagree with it all you want, but in the end it is reality. 

Cause there's no disagreements in the realm of economics haha.

If you can't develop the talent, plan how best to utilize the talent, put that talent in the best position to succeed, or retain that talent (TBD), it won't matter. 

[woodford 3,793]

9 minutes ago, KansasTiger said:

Cause there's no disagreements in the realm of economics haha.

If you can't develop the talent, plan how best to utilize the talent, put that talent in the best position to succeed, or retain that talent (TBD), it won't matter. 

Lol that’s the point. 

Accumulation of talent is the best way to win in CFB. You cannot Moneyball your way to an SEC title. Maybe one day soon but not now. The margin of error is too thin as we already see. Vanderbilt schemed their way to victory again Alabama but lost to Georgia State and was in a dog fight with Ball State last night. 
 

That’s what you get with lower level talent. Scooping up as much talent as possible gives you a better chance each weekend. Auburn has had terrible luck so far. The numbers will back Auburn going into 2025. The sheer bad luck in turnovers is not sustainable. 
 

Edit: Mario at Miami is not known for his in game coaching. They’re 7-0 because he’s a great recruiter. They killed it grabbing Ward. Auburn probably should’ve but that’s beyond the point. 

Edited Sunday at 09:35 PM by woodford

[KansasTiger 3,368]

3 minutes ago, woodford said:

Lol that’s the point. 

Accumulation of talent is the best way to win in CFB. You cannot Moneyball your way to an SEC title. Maybe one day soon but not now. The margin of error is too thin as we already see. Vanderbilt schemed their way to victory again Alabama but lost to Georgia State and was in a dog fight with Ball State last night. 
 

That’s what you get with lower level talent. Scooping up as much talent as possible gives you a better chance each weekend. Auburn has had terrible luck so far. The numbers will back Auburn going into 2025. The sheer bad luck in turnovers is not sustainable. 
 

Edit: Mario at Miami is not known for his in game coaching. They’re 7-0 because he’s a great recruiter. They killed it grabbing Ward. Auburn probably should’ve but that’s beyond the point. 

The belief that turnovers are the result of bad breaks and luck is one of the main faulty beliefs in your post. Talent acquisition is half the equation. We have enough talent to have won most the games we played. We are missing the other half of the equation 

[Hank2020 3,441]

20 minutes ago, KansasTiger said:

The belief that turnovers are the result of bad breaks and luck is one of the main faulty beliefs in your post. Talent acquisition is half the equation. We have enough talent to have won most the games we played. We are missing the other half of the equation 

The other half in this case, is the talent actually making the play, not the coaches not calling the plays.

[KansasTiger 3,368]

5 minutes ago, Hank2020 said:

The other half in this case, is the talent actually making the play, not the coaches not calling the plays.

Again why do we even have coaches? Should just have a staff of recruiters and let the players do whatever they want...

Edited Sunday at 10:06 PM by KansasTiger

[Hank2020 3,441]

1 minute ago, KansasTiger said:

Again why do we even have coaches? Should just have a staff of recruiters and let the players do whatever they want...

Ha, surely you put some weight that players must make plays to win. I am not obsolving coaches as having a negative impact in our losses, I just think if called plays were made, we would have a much different outcome. All three must be completed for success. 

[KansasTiger 3,368]

2 minutes ago, Hank2020 said:

Ha, surely you put some weight that players must make plays to win. I am not obsolving coaches as having a negative impact in our losses, I just think if called plays were made, we would have a much different outcome. All three must be completed for success. 

Where our coaches failed was prior to the field mostly. GameDay decisions and play calling are important but not nearly as important as having the right players, in the right position, with the right knowledge level and football iq to succeed. Just expecting the players to execute without considering whether or not the coaches taught them how to execute properly, is wrong.

And from what I've seen and heard...Freeze isn't doing that. 

[DAG 35,455]

4 minutes ago, Hank2020 said:

Ha, surely you put some weight that players must make plays to win. I am not obsolving coaches as having a negative impact in our losses, I just think if called plays were made, we would have a much different outcome. All three must be completed for success. 

There is not one reason to blame all the fault on why we aren’t winning games. There are collectively , several issues that are causing this. However, the fact still remains that the ball coach controls all the dynamics , culture , and processing of this program. There is a pattern occurring and based on some of the research put out there by other posters, this pattern is not something new. It is up to the ball coach to figure out the solution(s). It could be as easy as “we just need an overhaul of better players.” I seriously doubt it but it could be. He is 0 for 2 already, big time with some of the needed solutions and it has really set this program back. 

[Hank2020 3,441]

3 minutes ago, DAG said:

There is not one reason to blame all the fault on why we aren’t winning games. There are collectively , several issues that are causing this. However, the fact still remains that the ball coach controls all the dynamics , culture , and processing of this program. There is a pattern occurring and based on some of the research put out there by other posters, this pattern is not something new. It is up to the ball coach to figure out the solution(s). It could be as easy as “we just need an overhaul of better players.” I seriously doubt it but it could be. He is 0 for 2 already, big time with some of the needed solutions and it has really set this program back. 

I I assume the two you are referring to is his two years. I figured the first was going to be rough, but surely expected a better year this year. It has definitely set us back, as we all expected more.

[metafour 5,155]

53 minutes ago, woodford said:

Lol that’s the point. 

Accumulation of talent is the best way to win in CFB. You cannot Moneyball your way to an SEC title. Maybe one day soon but not now. The margin of error is too thin as we already see. Vanderbilt schemed their way to victory again Alabama but lost to Georgia State and was in a dog fight with Ball State last night. 
 

That’s what you get with lower level talent. Scooping up as much talent as possible gives you a better chance each weekend. Auburn has had terrible luck so far. The numbers will back Auburn going into 2025. The sheer bad luck in turnovers is not sustainable. 
 

Edit: Mario at Miami is not known for his in game coaching. They’re 7-0 because he’s a great recruiter. They killed it grabbing Ward. Auburn probably should’ve but that’s beyond the point. 

Bama with Saban, UGA with Smart, and A&M with Fisher all accumulated talent. Why did two of those scenarios lead to a boat load of wins, while the third led to complete collapse? Gene Chizik also accumulated talent - that ride fell apart in disaster two years after winning a national championship.

Here is the elephant in the room that you are missing: the teams in the SEC that accumulate the most talent are typically the ones with the best football resources/pedigree, which means that they ALSO tend to have the best actual coaches and program leaders. Talent acquisition and actual coaching ability are in most cases correlated.

So when you say "the way to win is to accumulate talent", you omit the fact that most of those teams that you see winning with talent also tend to have coaching staffs that run iron-tight ships and know how to mold all of that talent into winning teams. Saban, Smart, etc., etc. didn't just close their eyes and throw a bunch of 5-stars on the field and steam roll everyone.

The problem that should be becoming more and more apparent is that with each passing game Freeze looks more and more like Jimbo Fisher at A&M than he does those other guys that you are referring to who "accumulated talent". 

Miami is 7-0, but they also haven't beaten a single team worth anything this season. Their schedule is hilariously weak. The reality is that you can fly by the seat of your pants and rely on comebacks and late-game heroics vs. Cal, VTech, and Louisville - but that won't work against any similarly talented (or more talented) team. Cristobal is doing the same thing he was doing at Oregon: out-talent worse teams, but as soon as it was time to play the big game to get them to title contention they lost. His Miami team this season looks to be much of the same.

[cbo 9,056]

We all argue recruiting vs. coaching when the obvious truth is you need both. It's clear we have a HC who is very good at one and well below average at the other. 

If Freeze brings in a couple more elite classes, then of course the team will improve and win more games. But how many is the question. We have 2 wins right now. With better talent, I'm guessing Freeze gets you about 7 or 8 wins a season. 

Edited Sunday at 10:43 PM by cbo

[metafour 5,155]

51 minutes ago, Hank2020 said:

The other half in this case, is the talent actually making the play, not the coaches not calling the plays.

Don't you find it a little coincidental that "talent" tends to magically not make plays for coaches that ultimately fail and get fired, but "talent" seemingly always makes plays for the most successful coaches in the game?

Do you think it just works out this way by chance? God flipped a coin, and decided that Saban's talent at Bama would make plays, but Jimbo Fisher's talent at A&M wouldn't?

My man, this game is much more intricate and complicated than simply throwing a bunch of guys on the field and saying "have at it, hoss."

If your talent is CONSISTENTLY not making plays, then you have a preparation and execution problem. If you have a preparation and execution problem, then you have a COACHING problem. PERIOD. 

[Hank2020 3,441]

16 minutes ago, metafour said:

Don't you find it a little coincidental that "talent" tends to magically not make plays for coaches that ultimately fail and get fired, but "talent" seemingly always makes plays for the most successful coaches in the game?

Do you think it just works out this way by chance? God flipped a coin, and decided that Saban's talent at Bama would make plays, but Jimbo Fisher's talent at A&M wouldn't?

My man, this game is much more intricate and complicated than simply throwing a bunch of guys on the field and saying "have at it, hoss."

If your talent is CONSISTENTLY not making plays, then you have a preparation and execution problem. If you have a preparation and execution problem, then you have a COACHING problem. PERIOD. 

Talent didn’t make enough plays for Saban at Michigan State ( probably not enough talent). My comments are not trying to put all fault on players, just to say players have some responsibility. I know it’s not simple. I also don’t think the missed plays are consistent. Thats part of the “rub”.

[creed 1,858]

1 hour ago, KansasTiger said:

Where our coaches failed was prior to the field mostly. GameDay decisions and play calling are important but not nearly as important as having the right players, in the right position, with the right knowledge level and football iq to succeed. Just expecting the players to execute without considering whether or not the coaches taught them how to execute properly, is wrong.

And from what I've seen and heard...Freeze isn't doing that. 

Last time I checked we practice every week just like every other team in the SEC. Teaching football fundamentals is not rocket science and all staffs teach similar methods. Also, it’s easy to see players who don’t have the size, quickness or speed of their opponent but you have to watch more than just the ball. I challenge anyone to stop and watch the oline and you’ll develop an understanding (imo) where our main issue exists. The bright side is we’re loading up on oline talent. 

[KansasTiger 3,368]

2 minutes ago, creed said:

Last time I checked we practice every week just like every other team in the SEC. Teaching football fundamentals is not rocket science and all staffs teach similar methods. Also, it’s easy to see players who don’t have the size, quickness or speed of their opponent but you have to watch more than just the ball. I challenge anyone to stop and watch the oline and you’ll develop an understanding (imo) where our main issue exists. The bright side is we’re loading up on oline talent. 

Theres another thread where it was pointed out Freeze avoided going live as much as he could to avoid injuries and blasted rap music during the practice. Not really a conducive environment to focus and toughen football players. I can't speak to what's being taught at practice, just that results on the field don't line up with the talent we have on the roster. Some think that's a lack of talent. As many have pointed out, plenty of less talented teams have seemed to win where we could not.

[creed 1,858]

1 minute ago, KansasTiger said:

Theres another thread where it was pointed out Freeze avoided going live as much as he could to avoid injuries and blasted rap music during the practice. Not really a conducive environment to focus and toughen football players. I can't speak to what's being taught at practice, just that results on the field don't line up with the talent we have on the roster. Some think that's a lack of talent. As many have pointed out, plenty of less talented teams have seemed to win where we could not.

List which groups you think are above average in talent. 

[KansasTiger 3,368]

1 minute ago, creed said:

List which groups you think are above average in talent. 

Oline, DLine, LB are about average. Though scheme doesn't help the last two all that much imo.

WR, RB are above average.

QB and Secondary and below average, though I think the secondary has younger players that are more talented than the veterans.

Tackling overall on the defense is poor. Football knowledge and IQ on the team is overall poor. This is coaching.

The offense seems too big for Thorne and the WRs to run properly. They are constantly not on the same page for what routes need to be run when. I don't know if this is coaching, players not grasping the concept, maturity, or what. But it was issue last year and this year. What is a coaching issue is seeing this be an issue for two straight years and making no adjustments to help. 

[creed 1,858]

4 minutes ago, KansasTiger said:

Oline, DLine, LB are about average. Though scheme doesn't help the last two all that much imo.

WR, RB are above average.

QB and Secondary and below average, though I think the secondary has younger players that are more talented than the veterans.

Tackling overall on the defense is poor. Football knowledge and IQ on the team is overall poor. This is coaching.

The offense seems too big for Thorne and the WRs to run properly. They are constantly not on the same page for what routes need to be run when. I don't know if this is coaching, players not grasping the concept, maturity, or what. But it was issue last year and this year. What is a coaching issue is seeing this be an issue for two straight years and making no adjustments to help. 

Here’s my analysis:

Oline - below average

Tight Ends - Well below average

Running backs - Hunter above average. Others average

WRs - Above average

Qbs - well below average  

The key offensive positions are below average (oline, te, qbs)

dline - a little above average 

lbs - outside of 16(freshman) below average  

corners - average

safety - average  

dline appears to me be the best group.

 

[ArgoEagle 2,096]

Near the end of the 3rd quarter.  We have run, run, run down to a 1st & goal at the 10.  Freeze calls the perfect pass play to the left corner of the end zone.  Thorne throws probably the  most perfect pass this year.   Robert Lewis drops the ball that would have made the score 24-6 & put the game away.  Everyone did their job except Lewis. If he just catches the dead blame ball, then we're celebrating a well deserved win instead of these ridiculous conversations about Freeze.  Players gotta make plays.

[creed 1,858]

6 minutes ago, Gowebb11 said:

When Mizzou had third and medium on their last drive, they didn’t throw to one of our freshman DBs. They went after our senior, K Scott. Because they know from film that was their best shot for success. He’s been in our system for two years and is a fourth year player. The freshman who were in HS last year have outplayed him mentally and physically all year long. Says all you need to know about our lack of player development. 

I think due to lack of CB depth Scott is having to play that position. Scott is not a CB. He’s a safety in my opinion. So opposing teams go at Scott. We have young unrealized talent on the way to avoid having a safety trying play cb. 

[DAG 35,455]

2 hours ago, Hank2020 said:

I I assume the two you are referring to is his two years. I figured the first was going to be rough, but surely expected a better year this year. It has definitely set us back, as we all expected more.

No, more specifically was the first year of failed coordinators that we had to fire.  That was/is a major red flag. Then, the need to forego a transfer Qb who is comfortable in his system. Second red flag. Now he is recruiting great but what others fail to realize is it will take at least a couple of years for those recruits to make a true difference in the W-L column because they are young. 

[DAG 35,455]

2 hours ago, Hank2020 said:

Talent didn’t make enough plays for Saban at Michigan State ( probably not enough talent). My comments are not trying to put all fault on players, just to say players have some responsibility. I know it’s not simple. I also don’t think the missed plays are consistent. Thats part of the “rub”.

The Michigan state thing is so false. The truth is Michigan State was left in much better standards when Saban left then we obtained them. Obviously, they were not national champions but I see a lot of our players say this and completely forego his last year at Michigan state W/L record. They progressed. 
 

“Saban led the 1999 Spartans to a 9–2 season that included wins over Notre Dame, Michigan, Ohio State, and Penn State. The two losses were routs at the hands of Purdue and Wisconsin.^[61]Following the final regular-season game against Penn State, Saban abruptly resigned to accept the head coaching position with LSU.^[62] Saban's assistant head coach and successor, Bobby Williams, coached the Spartans to a Citrus Bowlvictory over Florida, giving the Spartans an overall record of 10–2 for the 1999 season.^[63][64] It was the most wins for the Spartans in a season since 1965, and the Spartans reached their highest ranking since the 1966 team.^[65”

This is what he took over:

Saban became head coach of Michigan State prior to the 1995 season. Michigan State had not had a winning season since 1990, and the team was sanctioned by the NCAA for recruiting violations that were committed under his predecessor and former mentor, George Perles.

 

 

Even in his average seasons, they loss games they shouldn’t have beat they also beat really good teams. In 1998, they beat #1 Ohio state and a highly ranked ND.

Finally in 1999, there was a break through. If Hugh was doing anything like that in a rebuild we wouldn’t be on him. Even if he were to go .500 we probably would give him a break. He is on a pathway of having a losing season his second year. 

Edited yesterday at 01:23 AM by DAG

[KansasTiger 3,368]

44 minutes ago, ArgoEagle said:

Near the end of the 3rd quarter.  We have run, run, run down to a 1st & goal at the 10.  Freeze calls the perfect pass play to the left corner of the end zone.  Thorne throws probably the  most perfect pass this year.   Robert Lewis drops the ball that would have made the score 24-6 & put the game away.  Everyone did their job except Lewis. If he just catches the dead blame ball, then we're celebrating a well deserved win instead of these ridiculous conversations about Freeze.  Players gotta make plays.

If we get to play the what if game on a single play, what if Cook didn't get injured on that one play in the second drive for Mizzou and we had to defend against an actual functional qb all game? Doubt the score is still 24-6 in your scenario. 

Point being, you can't cherry pick a scenario and point to it and say, 'look, we just have to execute better and we're fine!'. Our offense collectively scored 10 points. There were plenty of times we could have made up those 6 points and we didnt. Missouri did.

A player doesn't execute once, it's on him. A team collectively fails to execute in key moments over and over? It's on the coach and the culture.

[aucat 74]

2024 most popular SEC slogan: 1) It's easiest thing in the world to predict AU loss; 2) loser always find ways to lose in the 4th quarter.