Debate thread (Sept. 10)

[alanevans 259]

1 hour ago, wdefromtx said:

https://www.nbcmontana.com/news/nation-world/harris-backed-taxpayer-funded-gender-surgeries-for-detained-migrants-during-2020-campaign0-american-civil-liberties-union-aclu-donald-trump-transgender-kamala-democratic-washington-dc-election-2024-november-lgbtq-border-crisis
 

 

You and IM4AU….

[wdefromtx 3,611]

8 minutes ago, alanevans said:

You and IM4AU….

Wasn't this one of the things you thought he was coming up from crazyville?

[AUFAN78 4,156]

https://nypost.com/2024/08/21/us-news/biden-harris-admin-loses-track-of-320000-migrant-children/

Biden-Harris admin loses track of 320,000 migrant children — with untold numbers at risk of sex trafficking and forced labor

Tara Rodas, who was recruited as a federal government employee to help the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) with an influx of migrant kids in 2021, believed she would be doing noble work. However, she told The Post she was shocked to find she was handing those children to “traffickers, members of transnational criminal organizations, bad actors, bad, bad, bad people.”

 

When migrants cross the border illegally as children and are apprehended by border agents, they are released to HHS, which helps them connect with their sponsor in the US.

That sponsor doesn’t have to be a family member and during their vetting process are never required to meet with HHS officials in person. The vetting is typically done over the phone, said Rodas.

“At the very beginning of the Biden administration, they stripped all the vetting out of the process,” Rodas said.

By all means, let's support our border czar. 

[Didba 5,510]

“I have the concept of a plan.”

-Former President Donald Trump

[Didba 5,510]

46 minutes ago, AUFAN78 said:

"I have a plan." Try that with VISA when they call for payment. It's an answer you give when you have none. But, but, but....Our goofy gullible morons. God bless you 77. Peyton Thorne should hire you. 

Trump said “I have the concept of a plan….”about Obamacare. 

[AUFAN78 4,156]

10 minutes ago, Didba said:

Trump said “I have the concept of a plan….”about Obamacare. 

Indeed. As previously stated, not a fan of Trump either. 

[Didba 5,510]

2 minutes ago, AUFAN78 said:

Indeed. As previously stated, not a fan of Trump either. 

Are you sitting out?

[AUFAN78 4,156]

3 minutes ago, Didba said:

Are you sitting out?

As I have for the last 2 elections. In my eyes, we must do better. These two are pathetic.

I supported Haley.

Also had hope for a potential third party that never materialized in part due to Democrat propaganda, lawsuits, etc. A true threat to democracy. 

[auburnatl1 6,182]

2 hours ago, wdefromtx said:

But she still hasn’t shown what her policies will be and their opinion of her remains the same. 

Obviously you’ve figured out what all undecideds are thinking for all regions, races, age groups, and genders. 

Damn Impressive. Discussion closed.

[wdefromtx 3,611]

2 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

Obviously you’ve figured out what all undecideds are thinking for all regions, races, age groups, and genders. 

Damn Impressive. Discussion closed.

Yep. Glad you recognize my greatness! 
 

Revisit this post in November. 

[auburnatl1 6,182]

10 minutes ago, wdefromtx said:

Yep. Glad you recognize my greatness! 
 

Revisit this post in November. 

Odds makers don’t agree with you but you could be right.  If your that confident - bet big.  

https://www.northjersey.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/09/11/us-president-odds-2024-kamala-harris-donald-trump-debate-election/75145306007/

 

[ArgoEagle 2,052]

10 hours ago, AUFAN78 said:

Thanks to ABC commentators, "That was the easiest night Kamala's had since Willie Brown ran out of viagra." 

Gutfeld last night.  Hilarious!

[AU9377 6,037]

10 hours ago, AUFAN78 said:

"I have a plan." Try that with VISA when they call for payment. It's an answer you give when you have none. But, but, but....Our goofy gullible morons. God bless you 77. Peyton Thorne should hire you. 

Gullible is believing that Donald "has a plan" when it comes to health care.  You know.... that perfect health care that everyone was waiting for in 2016.

[AU9377 6,037]

11 hours ago, JMWATS said:

They should have muted David Muir’s microphone.  😀
 

Like Auburn Football, Trump can’t 😜 get any home cooked “refs” 

 https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/11/business/media/abc-debate-dana-walden-kamala-harris.html

So when he says something that isn't even arguable and is nothing more than a fairy tale, he shouldn't be called out for it?  I realize that happens on Fox every day, but it doesn't happen everywhere else in the same way.

When he repeats something that has been proven to be false, he should absolutely be called on it.  Talking about the causes of inflation is something that can be argued by both sides and argued over as to its cause. There is more than one cause and more than one thing can be true.  Every issue is not like that.

His claim that all of the election lawsuits were dismissed for lacking standing is something that is provably FALSE.  That is a LIE.  There is no alternative way of looking at the issue.

His claim about migrants eating pets in Springfield, IL was proven to be false. Should he be allowed to spread falsehoods?  If he wasn't challenged, viewers could assume that the lack of push back must mean that the claims are true.

The moderators didn't even push back when he went to his childish name calling rants. You can choose to believe someone's lies.  Millions have made that choice because it is somehow easier for them than admitting the obvious character flaws in the man they follow as though he is some sort of deity. 

Just realize that his character may be a non issue for you today while he is supporting your team, but you can't tame a rattlesnake.  When it serves his interests, he will bite you with the same vigor that you applaud him for today.

[AU9377 6,037]

33 minutes ago, ArgoEagle said:

Gutfeld last night.  Hilarious!

He is an entertainer and not a serious news source.  Unfortunately, many of you can't seem to get your heads around that fact.

[auburnatl1 6,182]

31 minutes ago, ArgoEagle said:

Gutfeld last night.  Hilarious!

So now the debate is rigged too? This is getting complicated. I hope someone at maga headquarters is keeping track of all this.

[Didba 5,510]

10 hours ago, AUFAN78 said:

As I have for the last 2 elections. In my eyes, we must do better. These two are pathetic.

I supported Haley.

Also had hope for a potential third party that never materialized in part due to Democrat propaganda, lawsuits, etc. A true threat to democracy. 

A third party will never materialize under our current system. It’s why I scream for electoral reform and constantly try to educate people on the multi-party proportional systems. 

[auburnatl1 6,182]

2 minutes ago, Didba said:

A third party will never materialize under our current system. It’s why I scream for electoral reform and constantly try to educate people on the multi-party proportional systems. 

Only roughly 25% of voters identify as liberals or conservative, the rest? Yep, the majority - left or right of center moderates who realistically have no party but have to ride this bipolar activist crazy train.

[SaltyTiger 8,579]

12 minutes ago, Didba said:

A third party will never materialize under our current system. It’s why I scream for electoral reform and constantly try to educate people on the multi-party proportional systems. 

My first thought on you educating people……what is the fee?

[Didba 5,510]

11 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

Only roughly 25% of voters identify as liberals or conservative, the rest? Yep, the majority - left or right of center moderates who realistically have no party but have to ride this bipolar activist crazy train.

And the bipolar train is 100% caused by our first past the post two party electoral system. You are 100% correct. 

[Didba 5,510]

19 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

My first thought on you educating people……what is the fee?

As always, 40%😉

[ArgoEagle 2,052]

31 minutes ago, AU9377 said:

He is an entertainer and not a serious news source.  Unfortunately, many of you can't seem to get your heads around that fact.

I watch it bc he is an entertainer and he is hilarious.  I am not a political junkie like many on this site.

They did in fact, not fiction, fact check Trump several times to Harris' 0.  You can't deny that.

She made several statements, such as the Virginia hoax, which has been proven several times to be taken out of context.

She was not pressed on any (vital) issues that she has been caught on tape saying in the past that people who don't follow politics regularly need to know about before they vote.   Everybody knows what Trump's Presidency was about and they know what they will get bc they lived through it.  He has nothing to prove.

She has everything to prove, and the moderators did not do their job in getting her to prove anything to the voters except when she studies for 2 weeks behind closed doors that she can be articulate in telling her lies and can talk a good game when she forces herself to be serious as if she was in a courtroom, which is really all she knows.

She is a phony.  She has no idea how to govern.   She has no policies except the ones she is hand written to quote from someone like Obama, or Pelosi.

I predict she WILL NOT DEBATE TRUMP on Fox bc she knows they will press her on her past issues (that's when she would fall apart like in the past)

Why do you think she dodged the question  Are Americans better off today than they were 4 years ago?  Why?   Yall need to wake up!

I'm done with this

[Didba 5,510]

15 minutes ago, ArgoEagle said:

I watch it bc he is an entertainer and he is hilarious. Yall need to wake up!

Ironic. 

[Leftfield 3,380]

1 hour ago, ArgoEagle said:

I watch it bc he is an entertainer and he is hilarious.  I am not a political junkie like many on this site.

You frequently say you don't follow politics like many here, and seem to admit that you use sources like Gutfield, an entertainer, for your news. Yet you still consider those of us who don't agree with you as morons who are being duped. Do you not see the logical breakdown in that thinking?

 

1 hour ago, ArgoEagle said:

She made several statements, such as the Virginia hoax, which has been proven several times to be taken out of context.

As debated earlier in this thread, Trump was talking about people in a protest that was organized by white supremacists. Therefore, a valid argument can be made that he was supporting white supremacists with his statement. You may believe he was only supporting people who were there who may not have been aware of who they were marching with, and you may actually be right, but there is no way to know if he's being honest, and there is no reason based on his history to believe him.

Point being, the moderators had no standing to fact check Harris when there is no way of confirming if Trump was being truthful.

 

1 hour ago, ArgoEagle said:

She was not pressed on any (vital) issues that she has been caught on tape saying in the past that people who don't follow politics regularly need to know about before they vote.   Everybody knows what Trump's Presidency was about and they know what they will get bc they lived through it.  He has nothing to prove.

I agree on part of this - there were questions that she evaded, and I don't like that she did. However, Trump evaded more questions, and your "everybody knows" and "he has nothing to prove" statements are incorrect. Trump would not answer if he wanted Ukraine to win the war. That's sort of a big deal, and does nothing to dispel the suspicions about his ties to and financial stakes in Russia. He also would not answer whether he would veto a national abortion ban. If he really wants to keep abortion up to the states, then why wouldn't he say he would veto a national ban? He's already flipped twice on abortion within a week, saying he would vote in favor of the Florida abortion access amendment and then saying he wouldn't. He's also suddenly for marijuana legalization, so Harris is not the only one who has some explaining to do.

There are other issues on which Trump has flipped, including the TikTok ban, cryptocurrency, and automatically giving green cards to non-citizens who graduate from US colleges. As to why he flipped on these, I'll let you ponder the possible reason$.

 

1 hour ago, ArgoEagle said:

She has everything to prove, and the moderators did not do their job in getting her to prove anything to the voters except when she studies for 2 weeks behind closed doors that she can be articulate in telling her lies and can talk a good game when she forces herself to be serious as if she was in a courtroom, which is really all she knows.

Sounds like sour grapes.

Most politicians dodge questions. I don't like it, which is why I don't usually watch debates. As for lies, for both candidates, post them (actual, provable lies) and we'll discuss. I think you'll find the list much longer for Trump.

 

1 hour ago, ArgoEagle said:

Why do you think she dodged the question  Are Americans better off today than they were 4 years ago?  Why?   Yall need to wake up!

Do you think the average person, or more particularly the average undecided voter, is going to listen to the nuance of why the economy has gone through such a rough period? Hell, you won't even admit that the pandemic and Ukraine war are largely responsible for the current state of the economy, nor that we've recovered faster than pretty much everyone else. Taking that into consideration, along with the fact there was a limited time for answers in the debate, I can understand the tactical decision to avoid the question, even if I don't like it.

 

1 hour ago, ArgoEagle said:

I'm done with this

Edited September 12 by Leftfield

[JMWATS 280]

2 hours ago, AU9377 said:

So when he says something that isn't even arguable and is nothing more than a fairy tale, he shouldn't be called out for it?  I realize that happens on Fox every day, but it doesn't happen everywhere else in the same way.

When he repeats something that has been proven to be false, he should absolutely be called on it.  Talking about the causes of inflation is something that can be argued by both sides and argued over as to its cause. There is more than one cause and more than one thing can be true.  Every issue is not like that.

His claim that all of the election lawsuits were dismissed for lacking standing is something that is provably FALSE.  That is a LIE.  There is no alternative way of looking at the issue.

His claim about migrants eating pets in Springfield, IL was proven to be false. Should he be allowed to spread falsehoods?  If he wasn't challenged, viewers could assume that the lack of push back must mean that the claims are true.

The moderators didn't even push back when he went to his childish name calling rants. You can choose to believe someone's lies.  Millions have made that choice because it is somehow easier for them than admitting the obvious character flaws in the man they follow as though he is some sort of deity. 

Just realize that his character may be a non issue for you today while he is supporting your team, but you can't tame a rattlesnake.  When it serves his interests, he will bite you with the same vigor that you applaud him for today.

fact check this

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A Venezuelan Gang Is Expanding Its Deadly Reach to the U.S.

Tren de Aragua involvement is suspected in 100 U.S. cases, bringing its violent brand of robbery and drug trafficking north

 

Larry Álvarez, a founder of Tren de Aragua, was recently arrested in Colombia. Colombian National Police

 

By Juan Forero

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Updated Sept. 12, 2024 12:41 am ET

 

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U.S. law-enforcement officials had watched with alarm the spread of a Venezuelan gang known for dismembering rivals from Chile to Colombia. But the gang, known as the Tren de Aragua, seemed contained in Latin America.

Then late last year, Anthony Salisbury, a top Homeland Security official, got a call. “Hey, have you heard of the Tren de Aragua?” a Texas official asked.

“Please don’t tell me you’ve seen them,” Salisbury responded.

In fact, the colleague said, Tren de Aragua members were operating in Texas. Now, Salisbury said, there are also dozens of criminal cases involving the gang in Miami, where he is based.

“They expanded fast in Latin America,” he said, “and they’re expanding fast here.”

Anthony Salisbury, a top U.S. Homeland Security official. Photo: Lynne Sladky/Associated Press

Founded in a Venezuelan prison where it ran a zoo, swimming pool, disco, restaurant and bar, the Tren de Aragua has grown into a fearsome transnational criminal force in less than a decade—“MS-13 on steroids,” as one federal official put it, referring to the Central American gang that is entrenched in many U.S. communities. The specter of crime caused by immigrants has become a major theme in the presidential campaign, with former President Donald Trump calling out “migrant crime” repeatedly.

Federal crime data show homicides and other crimes have dropped—and that the U.S. is far safer than it used to be. The gang isn’t a household name, but its activities are a source of fascination on social media. “I think the Tren de Aragua in the U.S. could help elect Trump,” said Michael Shifter, a senior fellow at the Inter-American Dialogue think tank in Washington.

Just as the Italian mafia followed the 19th century wave of immigration to the U.S., Tren de Aragua has emigrated alongside nearly eight million Venezuelans fleeing the reign of strongman Nicolás Maduro. Everywhere Tren de Aragua has set up, investigators say, it has established drug-distribution networks, extortion rackets and prostitution rings, preying on Venezuelans as they make new homes elsewhere in Latin America. 

American officials fear the same pattern emerging in the U.S., where more than 700,000 Venezuelans have settled in the past four years. Tren de Aragua members are suspects in the shooting of two New York police officers, the killing of a former Venezuelan police officer in South Florida, and crimes from Chicago to Texas, law-enforcement authorities said.

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Bernardo Raul Castro Mata, a Venezuelan migrant accused of shooting two NYPD officers, awaited arraignment in New York earlier this year. Photo: Howard Schnapp/Newsday/Getty Images

In all, there are now more than 100 investigations in the U.S. involving suspected members of Tren de Aragua, said a high-ranking Immigration and Customs Enforcement official.

The Treasury Department imposed sanctions on the group in July, and the State Department has offered up to $12 million as a reward for information leading to the arrest of three of the group’s leaders.

The Tren de Aragua—which means the Train of Aragua, the Venezuelan state in the center of the country—first relocated to neighboring Colombia before putting down roots in Peru, Chile, Ecuador and other countries, law-enforcement authorities and crime researchers say. The gang is looking for better opportunities than those in Venezuela, where the economy has capsized under Maduro’s rule, leading to hyperinflation and poverty made worse by U.S. sanctions.

A playground inside Venezuela’s Tocorón prison, where Tren de Aragua was founded. Photo: LEONARDO FERNANDEZ VILORIA/REUTERS

Tren de Aragua members have found particularly lucrative territory in New York City, authorities said. They are accused of robberies at Macy’s, Sunglass Hut and upscale stores, and moped-riding gang members also have been blamed for snatching phones from unsuspecting pedestrians, said Joseph Kenny, chief of detectives for the New York Police Department.

“It was like a wave of crime like we had never seen before,” Kenny said. “They can come here and make their money very quickly.”

Members sport tattoos, favoring depictions of a train, the No. 23 worn by NBA legend Michael Jordan and the Nike swoosh. They peddle drugs along Queens’ bustling Roosevelt Avenue but don’t extort small Venezuelan businesses like they do elsewhere, Kenny said.

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“They don’t have to nickel and dime a mom-and-pop store for five dollars a week for protection when they can walk into Macy’s and steal $7,000 worth of clothing and resell it out on the street,” he said.

Tren de Aragua members are difficult to identify and track because they have entered the U.S. through the southern border and share migration paperwork among themselves, Kenny said. It is difficult for police to determine a suspect’s criminal history because the U.S. doesn’t have diplomatic ties with Venezuela.

“They could be wanted for murder in Venezuela,” Kenny said. “We wouldn’t know that.”

Tren de Aragua expanded quickly from its origins in Venezuela’s Tocorón prison, trafficking drugs, contracting hits and extorting businesses outside the penitentiary walls—activities allowed by Venezuelan prison authorities, law-enforcement officials said.

Venezuelan government officials didn’t respond to requests for comment. Foreign Minister Yván Gil this year called Tren de Aragua a figment of the media’s imagination.

Photo: Carlos Villalon for WSJ

Tren de Aragua has expanded into Bogotá, Colombia, where the gang traffics in drugs and prostitution while shaking down businesses. Photo: Carlos Villalon for WSJ

The group branched into neighboring Colombia around 2018, setting up in the teeming working-class neighborhoods of Bogotá’s south side, where gangs battle it out to sell drugs, run bordellos and demand a monthly “vaccine,” or protection payment, from businesses, investigators say. Soon Tren de Aragua was dismembering rivals, leaving the remains in garbage bags on the streets.

Selling cocaine, marijuana and a potent cocaine derivative called bazuco is the gang’s main business. It also extorts businesses, killing the employees of stores whose owners don’t pay up.

One recent afternoon, German Murillo, a businessman organizing other store owners in Bogotá to report Tren de Aragua activities, sat in a cafe in front of a supermarket that the group targeted last year. When the owner refused to pay the “vaccine,” a gunman fatally shot a worker from behind as he arranged produce.

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“They extort restaurants, small shops, anyone,” Murillo said. “It’s an organization that’s involved in everything.”

German Murillo is organizing store owners in Bogotá, Colombia, to report Tren de Aragua activities. Photo: Carlos Villalon for WSJ

Tren de Aragua found an inviting environment in Chile, known for its relative affluence and low crime.

“The gang looks for earnings,” said Ronna Rísquez, a Venezuelan journalist and author of a book on Tren de Aragua. “In Chile, there were possibilities.”

Chile didn’t have powerful drug gangs, leaving the field wide open for Tren de Aragua. The gang’s methods have shocked Chilean officials.

Carolina Tohá, Chile’s interior minister, described how the gang carries heavy weaponry, shows special cruelty when settling scores, and commits crimes authorities hadn’t seen in the past. In February, the Tren de Aragua kidnapped a Venezuelan dissident from his apartment and killed him. His body was found in a suitcase buried under more than 4 feet of concrete in a nearby shantytown.

“It has been a very shocking experience for Chilean society,” Tohá said. 

Chilean officials attribute a 31% rise in homicides since 2019 to increased gang activity. Kidnappings have more than doubled in the past decade, authorities said. The number of foreign victims and perpetrators of homicides—many of them Venezuelans—have risen rapidly, crime statistics show.

Authorities in Chile tracked down one of Tren de Aragua’s founders, Larry Álvarez, to Santiago, where he had been operating a Venezuelan restaurant four blocks from the presidential palace since 2018. 

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Larry Álvarez remains jailed in Colombia while he awaits extradition to Chile. Photo: Colombian National Police

Though he appeared to be making an honest living like other Venezuelans in Chile, Álvarez was actually committing crimes, including a homicide, researchers and investigators said. When his cover was blown, Álvarez fled to Colombia.

From a farm in the prosperous coffee belt, Álvarez, better known as Larry Changa, continued to direct drug trafficking in Chile, Colombian prosecutors said. Police recently arrested him, and he is in jail awaiting extradition to Chile. Álvarez declined to comment.

Prosecutors said Tren de Aragua is trying to challenge Colombia’s most powerful armed militia, the Gulf Clan, which traffics cocaine and migrants to the U.S. and smuggles metals from illegal mining. Tren de Aragua is now dabbling in both moving migrants and extracting illegally mined gold.

“It’s a certainty that the Tren has expanded,” one of the prosecutors said, “and they have a big market for narco-trafficking in the U.S.”

Ryan Dube and Michelle Hackman contributed to this article.

 

Edited September 12 by JMWATS