Blount County AL Youth Minister Arrested on Multiple Rape and Child Abuse Charges

[Leftfield 3,307]

54 minutes ago, ArgoEagle said:

Did you see the part about dismissing him immediately?  Some of you guys just leave me scratching my bald head.

The logical next question, which I believe Aufan was implying, is "what happens next?" Really seems like you're saying the person would be dismissed and that's it. No reporting to police and that person is free to seek the same position at another Church. Is that the case?

[AUFAN78 4,130]

4 hours ago, Aufan59 said:

YIKES.  
 

Letting “God deal with him” is the equivalent of doing nothing.  God didn’t protect the children to begin with, he sure as hell isn’t protecting them in the future.  Simply letting “God deal with him” is not a case of one bad apple.  It is a case of an organization whose management enables abuse.

 

While this thread is full of examples that these people are in all walks of life, there is one significant difference:  clergy have laws protecting them from mandatory reporting.

 

In Alabama, for example, clergy aren’t required to report abuse if knowledge of it was gained during confidential communication.

 

I.e, clergy aren’t legally obligated to report abuse in some circumstances, so you can “let god handle it”.  In other words, enabling an abuser to abuse again somewhere else.

 

 

Just curious, what other crimes would you theoretically let god handle instead of the police?

 

Agree. The first action, the most important action, would be turning the pedophile into proper authorities. Then summarily dismiss. 

[AUFAN78 4,130]

2 hours ago, ArgoEagle said:

Did you see the part about dismissing him immediately?  Some of you guys just leave me scratching my bald head.

I agree with 59. Dismissal alone isn't justice.

[ArgoEagle 2,039]

1 hour ago, Leftfield said:

The logical next question, which I believe Aufan was implying, is "what happens next?" Really seems like you're saying the person would be dismissed and that's it. No reporting to police and that person is free to seek the same position at another Church. Is that the case?

No. If another church inquired about that person, we would definitely tell them the details of what happened & recommended not appointing them to that position.   Yes I believe that person should be prosecuted, but you have to have physical proof of the crime.

[Leftfield 3,307]

4 minutes ago, ArgoEagle said:

No. If another church inquired about that person, we would definitely tell them the details of what happened & recommended not appointing them to that position.   Yes I believe that person should be prosecuted, but you have to have physical proof of the crime.

True, you have to have proof for a prosecution, but if you don't even report it then the police can't investigate to get that proof.

Also, if the person is dismissed and applies for a position at another church, why would they give your church as a reference? 

Edited July 27 by Leftfield

[ArgoEagle 2,039]

15 minutes ago, Leftfield said:

True, you have to have proof for a prosecution, but if you don't even report it then the police can't investigate to get that proof.

Also, if the person is dismissed and applies for a position at another church, why would they give your church as a reference? 

If we heard of that person applying elsewhere, we would intervene.  I don't know what you want me to tell you.

[Leftfield 3,307]

1 minute ago, ArgoEagle said:

If we heard of that person applying elsewhere, we would intervene.  I don't know what you want me to tell you.

Well, I would like you to tell me you would do something to make sure that person couldn't harm another child. Simply saying "bye" doesn't really cut it.

Why wouldn't you report it to police? 

How would you intervene in that person being hired for another job if you don't know about it?

[Aufan59 168]

6 hours ago, ArgoEagle said:

Did you see the part about dismissing him immediately?  Some of you guys just leave me scratching my bald head.

Yes, I saw the part where you enable his behavior by not reporting it.  
 

Not reporting it is in fact illegal - but there is an exception if you are clergy who received the information solely through confidential communications (i.e. confession).

I think I make my point with my question: what other crimes would you not report to police and simply let god handle? 
 

 

 

 

Edited July 27 by Aufan59

[Aufan59 168]

On 7/26/2024 at 12:41 AM, I_M4_AU said:

So true:

 

 

 

They come in all forms of life.

They come in all forms, but only one form is legally protected from reporting laws.

 

Do you agree in clergy having certain exemptions from mandatory abuse reporting?

 

 

 

 

[DKW 86 7,866]

16 hours ago, AU9377 said:

You are absolutely free to believe that someone being gay is a great sin.  You simply are not allowed to use the hand of the government to impose religious views that restrict someone's ability to enjoy the freedoms that every other man and woman enjoys.  Doing so would make us a theocracy.

Wow. Talk about straw manning an argument. He never made a statement anywhere near what you are saying. Good job, now go straw man me and half the board. 

[I_M4_AU 8,888]

7 hours ago, Aufan59 said:

They come in all forms, but only one form is legally protected from reporting laws.

 

Do you agree in clergy having certain exemptions from mandatory abuse reporting?

 

 

 

 

They have in the past.

[homersapien 12,172]

21 hours ago, CoffeeTiger said:

(these are all links regarding Church sexual abuse issues in Alabama Churches. There are more...and every state has their own lists) 

https://www.al.com/news/2024/07/alabama-youth-minister-allegedly-threatened-to-kill-his-wife-if-teen-rape-victim-did-not-send-nude-photos.html

https://www.al.com/news/2022/05/these-34-alabama-ministers-are-on-the-southern-baptist-churchs-alleged-sex-abuser-list.html

https://www.christianpost.com/news/alabama-pastor-charged-with-rape-used-church-to-contact-victims.html

https://apnews.com/article/religion-alabama-sexual-abuse-by-clergy-indictments-86fa1d0b638d160084657e1f85ac582b

https://www.wsfa.com/2024/05/22/montgomery-pastor-indicted-sex-crime-charges/

https://www.fox10tv.com/2024/05/28/faith-leaders-react-shocking-sexual-abuse-allegations-against-mobile-area-pastor/

https://www.bishop-accountability.org/2024/06/robert-morris-resigns-as-overseer-at-alabama-megachurch-following-sex-abuse-allegations/

https://www.joemygod.com/2023/10/alabama-youth-pastor-arrested-on-child-sex-charge/

https://www.waaytv.com/news/alabama/huntsville-church-says-former-employee-charged-with-child-sex-crime/article_f41ed628-188f-11ef-8c5f-07c2193bf318.html

https://churchleaders.com/news/466088-former-megachurch-pastor-micahn-carter-files-defamation-suit-against-rape-accuser.html

https://www.decaturdaily.com/news/morgan_county/decatur/pastor-ex-worship-leader-charged-with-sex-offenses-got-background-check/article_587fce96-a0a4-5e28-90f2-52474ce9ea2c.html

https://www.al.com/news/2024/01/former-hoover-travel-coach-sentenced-to-prison-for-sex-abuse-case-involving-minor.html

https://www.al.com/news/2023/08/loxley-pastor-arrested-on-child-pornography-charges.html

https://www.fox10tv.com/2024/04/13/pastor-our-savior-church-arrested-archdiocese-mobile-confirms/

 

 

Nobody is saying that all church pastors are abusing kids or that this happens at every church. of course it doesn't. A majority of churches never have abuse scandals or issues. But Unfortunately it does happen often enough that I think it shows that overall church leadership doesn't do a good job of weeding  out these bad wolves in sheep's clothing, and that maybe procedural or cultural changes need to take place within American churches 

Perhaps it needs to be more common for Churches to not only warn about sin and dangers outside of the walls of their Church, but to also openly acknowledge that dangers and evil can reside inside the Churches too. 

If a Church pastor or leader is accused of sexual impropriety, maybe Churches need to stop putting those people into "church Rehab/restoration" programs and then reinstating them into their leadership positions. 

Churches should do thorough background checks on who they hire or choose as their leaders.

Maybe Churches need to institute strict policies where it's forbidden for church leaders or teachers to ever be along with any individual children without others present and forbid church pastors/member from communicating with minors through phones or social media on an individual basis. 

parents and church leaders also always need to let the children in their congregations know and feel comfortable in coming forward and being open if an adult ever makes them feel uncomfortable or acts strangely or inappropriately with them...even if that adult is their pastor or youth minister or a trusted member of the church.  

 

Churches are one of the very very few places in our society where many parents are comfortable with and let their guard down with unsupervised strangers having control and personal interactions with their children. There aren't any real established national rules or laws or guidelines in how children should be protected or safeguarded and some churches are much more vigilant in regards to child safety than others are. 

Abused children are collateral damage in the "culture wars".

The focus on homosexuality or transgenderism is simply diversionary to the real threat they face - pedophiles distributed through out society - including churches. 

Meanwhile we pass laws defining what bathrooms can be used (and label homosexuality a "sin" ).

 

[Aufan59 168]

2 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

They have in the past.

And in the present.

 

do you agree with clergy exemptions for mandatory abuse reporting?

[I_M4_AU 8,888]

35 minutes ago, Aufan59 said:

And in the present.

 

do you agree with clergy exemptions for mandatory abuse reporting?

What’s your point?  Biden has gotten away with showering and abusing his daughter, there are people who will escape responsibility for their actions just because of who they are.

[Aufan59 168]

39 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

What’s your point?  Biden has gotten away with showering and abusing his daughter, there are people who will escape responsibility for their actions just because of who they are.

I’m asking if you agree clergy should be exempt from mandatory reporting laws, and you have dodged the question twice.

 

The point is that I agree that abuse happens in all walks of life, as you pointed out.  But we literally have laws prioritizing religion over protecting children, so I feel it is fair to hold the clergy to a higher standard.

 

 

[I_M4_AU 8,888]

4 minutes ago, Aufan59 said:

I’m asking if you agree clergy should be exempt from mandatory reporting laws, and you have dodged the question twice.

 

The point is that I agree that abuse happens in all walks of life, as you pointed out.  But we literally have laws prioritizing religion over protecting children, so I feel it is fair to hold the clergy to a higher standard.

 

 

I have said and posted that the perps should be called out and prosecuted.  Where is your issue?

[Aufan59 168]

5 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

I have said and posted that the perps should be called out and prosecuted.  Where is your issue?

Do you agree clergy should have exemptions from reporting abuse?

 

My issue is that they do.  Wondering where you fall.

[I_M4_AU 8,888]

Just now, Aufan59 said:

Do you agree clergy should have exemptions from reporting abuse?

 

My issue is that they do.  Wondering where you fall.

Perps should be called out and prosecuted.

[Aufan59 168]

9 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

Perps should be called out and prosecuted.

Care to answer the question?

Should clergy have exemptions from reporting child abuse?

 

 

Edited July 27 by Aufan59

[Aufan59 168]

To summarize why people are especially outraged when it happens in a church, even though it happens in all walks of life:

 

Christians think they have the moral high ground, when in fact they have the moral low ground.

 

Legally - Clergy are EXEMPT from reporting laws if they learned about abuse in confidence.  We literally have laws, specifically protecting child abusers, if they are clergy.  
 

Philosophically - The idea that god provides justice is a fantasy.  God has not, will not and never will protect anyone.   Relying on god to provide justice is equivalent to doing nothing, which is enabling abuse.

 

So yes, abuse happens in all walks of life.  But the church has legal abuse privileges and a fantasyland philosophy that enables abuse.

 

This is why it is important to specifically call out abusers who hide in religion, highlight that the church literally has legal abuse privileges, and criticize anyone, such as I_M4_AU, who deflects the problem by pointing out other abusers. 

Edited July 28 by Aufan59

[I_M4_AU 8,888]

2 hours ago, Aufan59 said:

Legally - Clergy are EXEMPT from reporting laws if they learned about abuse in confidence.  We literally have laws, specifically protecting child abusers, if they are clergy.  

You might have misinterpreted this one.  I’m not a Catholic, but I believe the *learned about abuse in confidence* refers to confession where Catholics can absolve their sins by confessing those sins to a priest.  The priest receiving the confession has an obligation to keep those confessions to him/her self.  So, it is a first amendment issue that, I can see, could be and has been abused.

2 hours ago, Aufan59 said:

Philosophically - The idea that god provides justice is a fantasy.  God has not, will not and never will protect anyone.   Relying on god to provide justice is equivalent to doing nothing, which is enabling abuse.

Again, a non believer would come up with this one.  The philosophy that God provides justice is born, IMO, from *vengence is mine sayeth the Lord*.  It is not meant to say God will provide justice, only to allow man not to take matters into their own hands when an injustice is done to them.

 

2 hours ago, Aufan59 said:

This is why it is important to specifically call out abusers who hide in religion, highlight that the church literally has legal abuse privileges, and criticize anyone, such as I_M4_AU, who deflects the problem by pointing out other abusers. 

As stated many times, all abusers should be called out and dealt with implying whether they are clergy or not.  I am not deflecting away from clergy abusing children and not defending them doing so.  The article in the OP mentions this and I did not rebuff anything in the article. I just pointed out there are abusers in all walks of life.  You seem to have an issue with anything religious, I’m sorry you do, but I am not the problem you have with religion, you are.

[Aufan59 168]

43 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

You might have misinterpreted this one.  I’m not a Catholic, but I believe the *learned about abuse in confidence* refers to confession where Catholics can absolve their sins by confessing those sins to a priest.  The priest receiving the confession has an obligation to keep those confessions to him/her self.  So, it is a first amendment issue that, I can see, could be and has been abused.

Again, a non believer would come up with this one.  The philosophy that God provides justice is born, IMO, from *vengence is mine sayeth the Lord*.  It is not meant to say God will provide justice, only to allow man not to take matters into their own hands when an injustice is done to them.

 

As stated many times, all abusers should be called out and dealt with implying whether they are clergy or not.  I am not deflecting away from clergy abusing children and not defending them doing so.  The article in the OP mentions this and I did not rebuff anything in the article. I just pointed out there are abusers in all walks of life.  You seem to have an issue with anything religious, I’m sorry you do, but I am not the problem you have with religion, you are.

 

You deflected, see your first response.

 

The law in Alabama specifically exempts clergy.  This is a problem and you won’t answer the question - should they be exempt?

Finally we saw an example of the philosophy where someone literally said they would let god deal with it, and was so very confused why he would get police involved.

 

The fact is that organized religion has laws and philosophies that enable abuse.  And your response is to dodge and deflect - which understandable.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 28 by Aufan59

[I_M4_AU 8,888]

40 minutes ago, Aufan59 said:

You deflected, see your first response.

Agree with the OP is deflecting?  I agreed and pointed out other areas parents need to be vigilant.

 

43 minutes ago, Aufan59 said:

The law in Alabama specifically exempts clergy.  This is a problem and you won’t answer the question - should they be exempt?

Whatever I say will not satisfy you hatred of that law.  I get it, why don’t you?

 

[Aufan59 168]

4 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

Agree with the OP is deflecting?  I agreed and pointed out other areas parents need to be vigilant.

 

Whatever I say will not satisfy you hatred of that law.  I get it, why don’t you?

 

You weren’t agreeing, you completely missed his point and deflected.

 

So I assume you are in favor of the law that protects abusers from the Church?  

 

 

[I_M4_AU 8,888]

6 minutes ago, Aufan59 said:

assume

ass.u.me