The risk for suicide among

[TexasTiger 14,068]

Patients in the UK reporting gender dysphoria and not receiving puberty blockers has been greatly overblown.

This has been the most compelling and most dangerous and reckless claim supporting medical experimentation on minors. Scores of psychologists and many medical professionals have recklessly made this claim while pressuring concerned parents to consent to experimental treatments. What will they do now? Nothing until sued into submission.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/review-of-suicides-and-gender-dysphoria-at-the-tavistock-and-portman-nhs-foundation-trust/review-of-suicides-and-gender-dysphoria-at-the-tavistock-and-portman-nhs-foundation-trust-independent-report
 

 

[I_M4_AU 8,888]

It happens to the best and brightest:

 

 

[TexasTiger 14,068]

16 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

 

It happens to the best and brightest

 

And Elon Musk, too.

[cbo 8,556]

On 7/22/2024 at 1:21 AM, TexasTiger said:

Patients in the UK reporting gender dysphoria has been greatly overblown.

This has been the most compelling and most dangerous and reckless claim supporting medical experimentation on minors. Scores of psychologists and many medical professionals have recklessly made this claim while pressuring concerned parents to consent to experimental treatments. What will they do now? Nothing until sued into submission.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/review-of-suicides-and-gender-dysphoria-at-the-tavistock-and-portman-nhs-foundation-trust/review-of-suicides-and-gender-dysphoria-at-the-tavistock-and-portman-nhs-foundation-trust-independent-report
 

 

Interesting stat from another country with a completely different culture. 

Here's another stat for you. I have one trans kid out of my three and he attempted suicide. So that's 100% in my house. Hope that's not too dangerous or reckless for you. 

We listened to him but put him off on even minor changes until the suicide attempt. After that, we fully supported reasonable changes and he's doing better. 

[TexasTiger 14,068]

22 minutes ago, cbo said:

Interesting stat from another country with a completely different culture. 

Here's another stat for you. I have one trans kid out of my three and he attempted suicide. So that's 100% in my house. Hope that's not too dangerous or reckless for you. 

We listened to him but put him off on even minor changes until the suicide attempt. After that, we fully supported reasonable changes and he's doing better. 

I trust you know what’s best for your child. I’m glad he’s doing better.

[DAG 34,551]

27 minutes ago, cbo said:

Interesting stat from another country with a completely different culture. 

Here's another stat for you. I have one trans kid out of my three and he attempted suicide. So that's 100% in my house. Hope that's not too dangerous or reckless for you. 

We listened to him but put him off on even minor changes until the suicide attempt. After that, we fully supported reasonable changes and he's doing better. 

Did not know this. What a vulnerable situation to share. This is also why people need to be empathetic and not just shoot off over the computer.  This is a very special population , near and dear to me, and the suicide and self harm risk are very high. Also depending on where you live, there can be little to none real resources to assist. Sorry to hear about that man. 

[cbo 8,556]

1 minute ago, TexasTiger said:

I trust you know what’s best for your child. I’m glad he’s doing better.

Thanks. I honestly wasn't trying to start up with you again on this topic. 

But I remembered that I said you frequently started threads on this subject so decided to look for the second most recent one. 

I was a little pissed to see this one. I think the information you are spreading is reckless. I don't understand the point of minimizing suicide risk for trans people which has been widely studied and documented. 

I know my "evidence" can easily be dismissed as anecdotal. I know I may be biased by my personal experiences. And I'm definitely not looking for sympathy. 

But I'm asking you again to consider where this obsession with trans people originates. And the harm it might do to decent people. I wouldn't bother with some of the crazy, right wing people on this board. But I agree with most of your political opinions, so it feels like it might be worth it. 

[cbo 8,556]

8 minutes ago, DAG said:

Did not know this. What a vulnerable situation to share. This is also why people need to be empathetic and not just shoot off over the computer.  This is a very special population , near and dear to me, and the suicide and self harm risk are very high. Also depending on where you live, there can be little to none real resources to assist. Sorry to hear about that man. 

Thanks, DAG. You know I appreciate you and I'm not surprised that you get it. You are the most real person on this board to me. Even when I hated you haha

I'm sure it's weird and off-putting to some people to post this type of thing, but you nailed the reason why I did. 

[DAG 34,551]

2 minutes ago, cbo said:

Even when I hated you haha

That was me being an idiot, for sure. once again, thanks for sharing; I know that was not easy, but it puts a lot into perspective, hopefully, all around here. 

[cbo 8,556]

4 minutes ago, DAG said:

That was me being an idiot, for sure. once again, thanks for sharing; I know that was not easy, but it puts a lot into perspective, hopefully, all around here. 

Wasn't just you, but thanks man. 

[Gowebb11 9,801]

1 hour ago, cbo said:

Interesting stat from another country with a completely different culture. 

Here's another stat for you. I have one trans kid out of my three and he attempted suicide. So that's 100% in my house. Hope that's not too dangerous or reckless for you. 

We listened to him but put him off on even minor changes until the suicide attempt. After that, we fully supported reasonable changes and he's doing better. 

Thanks to you and your family for providing support and a safe place for your child. Nothing is more important. 

[cbo 8,556]

2 minutes ago, Gowebb11 said:

Thanks to you and your family for providing support and a safe place for your child. Nothing is more important. 

Truly appreciate that. 

[DKW 86 7,866]

On 7/22/2024 at 5:32 PM, TexasTiger said:

And Elon Musk, too.

Yea! Because people leading the charge into the 21st Century, Conversion away from polluting oil, EVs, Space Exploration are of course idiots... 

BTW, what exactly are you doing to aid the future of the planet?

[DKW 86 7,866]

8 hours ago, cbo said:

Interesting stat from another country with a completely different culture. 

Here's another stat for you. I have one trans kid out of my three and he attempted suicide. So that's 100% in my house. Hope that's not too dangerous or reckless for you. 

We listened to him but put him off on even minor changes until the suicide attempt. After that, we fully supported reasonable changes and he's doing better. 

Sorry to hear. I am a victim of family suicide as well. But personal anecdotes do not equal national statistics. 100% of you and me is not a valid sample size to be adjudicating the rest of the nation's decisions.

[EastLakeTiger 57]

2 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

Sorry to hear. I am a victim of family suicide as well. But personal anecdotes do not equal national statistics. 100% of you and me is not a valid sample size to be adjudicating the rest of the nation's decisions.

Anecdotes aren't good samples, no.  But as @cbo pointed out the UK and the US have drastic different cultures.  We don't need to look at school shootings in the UK and then use that to determine the current state in the US.

When you have half the country aggressively attacking you, labeling you a pedophile or disgusting just for existing, actively trying shun society and blocking them from even noticing you exist.....you're going to have different results. 

It's wild we don't see the countless outcry against Christianity in this country with repeated religious leaders raping children and abusing minors.  But that doesn't fit their narrative

[Aufan59 168]

On 7/22/2024 at 10:21 AM, TexasTiger said:

Patients in the UK reporting gender dysphoria has been greatly overblown.

This has been the most compelling and most dangerous and reckless claim supporting medical experimentation on minors. Scores of psychologists and many medical professionals have recklessly made this claim while pressuring concerned parents to consent to experimental treatments. What will they do now? Nothing until sued into submission.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/review-of-suicides-and-gender-dysphoria-at-the-tavistock-and-portman-nhs-foundation-trust/review-of-suicides-and-gender-dysphoria-at-the-tavistock-and-portman-nhs-foundation-trust-independent-report
 

 

Great, another person who posts studies they either didn’t read or understand and makes a sweeping generalization about them.

This study is specific to the effects of the Bell v Tavistock, where puberty blockers were not allowed in patients under 16.

 

They are dismissing the claim that suicides at Tavistock skyrocketed as a result of this decision, and conclude that there is not enough data to make that claim.

 

Note, nowhere do they make such a sweeping, generalized claim that risk of suicide in gender dysphoria patients was greatly overblown.  This may be your opinion, but don’t pretend the study backs that up as fact. 

 

 

[TexasTiger 14,068]

1 hour ago, Aufan59 said:

Note, nowhere do they make such a sweeping, generalized claim that risk of suicide in gender dysphoria patients was greatly overblown.  This may be your opinion, but don’t pretend the study backs that up as fact. 

I specifically said this:

“Scores of psychologists and many medical professionals have recklessly made this claim while pressuring concerned parents to consent to experimental treatments.”

The risk of suicide has often been the basis for medicalization, including puberty blockers. As pointed out in the study, social media has been particularly reckless in this regard. They specifically found that the risk did not go up after the decision to no longer provide puberty blockers to under 16 year olds.

 

“These claims have been retweeted thousands of times by other campaigners and members of the public. They have been repeated by some leading journalists, though there is nothing to suggest that they have examined the evidence for themselves. They too have adopted the language of “dying children”.

NHS England appraisal of Tavistock audit 

I have examined the figures provided by NHSE on deaths in each year between 2018-19 and 2023-24. They are based on an internal audit by the Tavistock of deaths among current and former GIDS patients, divided by age (under 18 or 18 plus) and cause of death (suicide or other/suicide not confirmed).

It is important to acknowledge in describing suicide statistics that the figures are not dry data; they represent real lives lost.

The numbers are small: by this breakdown, by year, age and cause, the highest count is 2. Conventional practice in presenting small numbers, based on guidance from the Office for National Statistics, is not to present figures lower than 3, to avoid possible identification of individuals. In this review I refer to aggregate figures only.

In this period of 6 years the data show a total of 12 suicides: 6 in the under 18s, 6 in those 18 and above. In the 3 years leading up to 2020-21, there were 5 suicides, compared to 7 in the 3 years after. This is essentially no difference, taking account of expected fluctuations in small numbers, and would not reach statistical significance. In the under 18s specifically, there were 3 suicides before and 3 after 2020-21.

Alongside the figures, there is a summary of the problems faced by the young people who died. These include mental illness, traumatic experiences, family disruption and being in care or under children’s services.

These figures clearly do not support the main claim that suicides have risen steeply since the High Court judgment. They do not support the claim of one waiting list death before and 16 after the judgment. The information confirms the multiple factors that contribute to suicide risk in this group.”

Anyone in distress, and young people are particularly vulnerable, is at risk for suicide including young people with gender dysphoria and require compassionate treatment. Parents need to be given accurate info regarding suicide risks as well honest information about the unproven nature of treatment and the risks of side effects. They also need to explore less intrusive means of providing appropriate support, which may include a degree of social transition.

But the issue I was addressing is how that threat is often used to encourage parents to pursue unproven treatments. This study certainly suggests the degree of threat for not having medical intervention is often overblown.

The report clearly articulates the concerns I’ve had about such reckless rhetoric:

“2. The way that this issue has been discussed on social media has been insensitive, distressing and dangerous, and goes against guidance on safe reporting of suicide. One risk is that young people and their families will be terrified by predictions of suicide as inevitable without puberty blockers - some of the responses on social media show this.

Another is identification, already-distressed adolescents hearing the message that “people like you, facing similar problems, are killing themselves”, leading to imitative suicide or self-harm, to which young people are particularly susceptible.

Then there is the insensitivity of the “dead child” rhetoric. Suicide should not be a slogan or a means to winning an argument. To the families of 200 teenagers a year in England, it is devastating and all too real.

3. The claims that have been placed in the public domain do not meet basic standards for statistical evidence. To be reliable, evidence should be objective, unbiased and open to independent scrutiny. It should admit uncertainty.”

 

If folks want to dismiss the data because it’s from the UK they can do so. The social media and professional media issues they cite are throughout the English speaking world, though, as are the stances of many in the medical community of both countries.

[Aufan59 168]

43 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

I specifically said this:

“Scores of psychologists and many medical professionals have recklessly made this claim while pressuring concerned parents to consent to experimental treatments.”

The risk of suicide has often been the basis for medicalization, including puberty blockers. As pointed out in the study, social media has been particularly reckless in this regard. They specifically found that the risk did not go up after the decision to no longer provide puberty blockers to under 16 year olds.

 

“These claims have been retweeted thousands of times by other campaigners and members of the public. They have been repeated by some leading journalists, though there is nothing to suggest that they have examined the evidence for themselves. They too have adopted the language of “dying children”.

NHS England appraisal of Tavistock audit 

I have examined the figures provided by NHSE on deaths in each year between 2018-19 and 2023-24. They are based on an internal audit by the Tavistock of deaths among current and former GIDS patients, divided by age (under 18 or 18 plus) and cause of death (suicide or other/suicide not confirmed).

It is important to acknowledge in describing suicide statistics that the figures are not dry data; they represent real lives lost.

The numbers are small: by this breakdown, by year, age and cause, the highest count is 2. Conventional practice in presenting small numbers, based on guidance from the Office for National Statistics, is not to present figures lower than 3, to avoid possible identification of individuals. In this review I refer to aggregate figures only.

In this period of 6 years the data show a total of 12 suicides: 6 in the under 18s, 6 in those 18 and above. In the 3 years leading up to 2020-21, there were 5 suicides, compared to 7 in the 3 years after. This is essentially no difference, taking account of expected fluctuations in small numbers, and would not reach statistical significance. In the under 18s specifically, there were 3 suicides before and 3 after 2020-21.

Alongside the figures, there is a summary of the problems faced by the young people who died. These include mental illness, traumatic experiences, family disruption and being in care or under children’s services.

These figures clearly do not support the main claim that suicides have risen steeply since the High Court judgment. They do not support the claim of one waiting list death before and 16 after the judgment. The information confirms the multiple factors that contribute to suicide risk in this group.”

Anyone in distress, and young people are particularly vulnerable, is at risk for suicide including young people with gender dysphoria and require compassionate treatment. Parents need to be given accurate info regarding suicide risks as well honest information about the unproven nature of treatment and the risks of side effects. They also need to explore less intrusive means of providing appropriate support, which may include a degree of social transition.

But the issue I was addressing is how that threat is often used to encourage parents to pursue unproven treatments. This study certainly suggests the degree of threat for not having medical intervention is often overblown.

The report clearly articulates the concerns I’ve had:

“2. The way that this issue has been discussed on social media has been insensitive, distressing and dangerous, and goes against guidance on safe reporting of suicide. One risk is that young people and their families will be terrified by predictions of suicide as inevitable without puberty blockers - some of the responses on social media show this.

Another is identification, already-distressed adolescents hearing the message that “people like you, facing similar problems, are killing themselves”, leading to imitative suicide or self-harm, to which young people are particularly susceptible.

Then there is the insensitivity of the “dead child” rhetoric. Suicide should not be a slogan or a means to winning an argument. To the families of 200 teenagers a year in England, it is devastating and all too real.

3. The claims that have been placed in the public domain do not meet basic standards for statistical evidence. To be reliable, evidence should be objective, unbiased and open to independent scrutiny. It should admit uncertainty.”

 

If folks want to dismiss the data because it’s from the UK they can do so. The social media and professional media issues they cite are throughout the English speaking world, though, as are the stances of many in the medical community of both countries.

You specifically said that the “The risk for suicide among Patients in the UK reporting gender dysphoria has been greatly overblown.“

You may have made other great points, but this broad generalization was not backed by the study.

 

If you want to make an argument against puberty blockers, fine.  And it seems later on you are.  But the broad statement you made as the title/opener is casting a way wider net than the focus of the study, and way wider than the puberty blocker argument.

 

If the conservatives focused on that small area of puberty blockers, they actually have a decent argument.  But instead they… and you… use puberty blockers as a jumping off point to cast a very wide net.  
 

 

Edited August 5 by Aufan59

[TexasTiger 14,068]

3 minutes ago, Aufan59 said:

You specifically said that the “The risk for suicide among Patients in the UK reporting gender dysphoria has been greatly overblown.“

You may have made other great points, but this broad generalization was not backed by the study.

 

If you want to make an argument against puberty blockers, fine.  And it seems later on you are.  But the broad statement you made as the title/opener is casting a way wider net than the focus of the study, and way wider than the puberty blocker argument.

 

If the conservatives focused on that small area of puberty blockers, they actually have a decent argument.  But instead they… and you… use puberty blockers as a jumping off point to cast a very wide net.  
 

 

Most writing can always be clearer and that’s true for me as well. But after that one sentence it was pretty clear what I was focusing on.

[Aufan59 168]

20 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Most writing can always be clearer and that’s true for me as well. But after that one sentence it was pretty clear what I was focusing on.

 Your broad generalization didn’t even mention “youths” or equivalent.

 

This is the same tactic generally used by conservatives, start small with the reasonable argument about puberty blockers, but then cast a giant net, like laws banning adults from getting gender affirming care.

 

If your original post was just unclear writing and not bait and switch tactics, there is an edit button to make it more clear.  

 

Edited August 5 by Aufan59

[TexasTiger 14,068]

2 minutes ago, Aufan59 said:

 Your broad generalization didn’t even mention “youths” or equivalent.

 

This is the same tactic generally used by conservatives, start small with the reasonable argument about puberty blockers, but then cast a giant net, like laws banning adults from getting gender affirming care.

 

If your original post was just unclear writing and not bait and switch tactics, there is an edit button to make it more clear.  

 

Dude. Okay. But you came at me snarky as hell and, frankly, like a real jerk. I resisted the urge to respond in kind and instead answered as if you’d posed a less snarky critique. You came back focused on the one sentence, not the clarifying body of the post. Once again, I owned it. But since you keep coming at me like a rude jerk, I’ll note who you are and move on.

[Aufan59 168]

2 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

Dude. Okay. But you came at me snarky as hell and, frankly, like a real jerk. I resisted the urge to respond in kind and instead answered as if you’d posed a less snarky critique. You came back focused on the one sentence, not the clarifying body of the post. Once again, I owned it. But since you keep coming at me like a rude jerk, I’ll note who you are and move on.

If you owned it, you would edit the misinformation.

 

Spreading misinformation then just saying “oops my bad” while keeping the wrong information intact is not owning it.

 

But do as you please.  
 

whoops, hey you edited it.  Respect.  
 

 

Edited August 5 by Aufan59

[TexasTiger 14,068]

11 hours ago, Aufan59 said:

whoops, hey you edited it.  Respect

I said “Okay.” 😉