I Think the Dems Have Lost the High Ground

[arein0 1,104]

4 minutes ago, E'Town4Bama said:

Why are there 5 and 12 year limits on certain things. Again for a lawyer to answer.

https://www.archives.gov/files/guidance-on-presidential-records-from-the-national-archives-and-records-administration-2020.pdf

Not a lawyer, but just glancing at the pdf it looks like with sign-off from the archives, the former President can request to show their documents starting 5 years after their last date (hasn't happened yet) and the current president has the ability to block certain documents for up to 12 years. 

[AUFAN78 4,148]

20 minutes ago, Leftfield said:

Because some of the documents contained information on nuclear secrets, including allies' nuclear capabilities, and also detailed plans of a potential attack on Iran. It would be extremely damaging to our relationship with any nation if we proved ourselves incapable of being discreet about their defense, particularly if a person we elected as President was responsible for it.

So we've been led to believe. Also protected by Secret Service (which may not mean what it used to) at the Mar a Lago compound.

 

26 minutes ago, Leftfield said:

It just reinforces what we already know about him...he's a petulant kid in a 78-year-old's body.

I'll not argue the point.

[E'Town4Bama 174]

3 minutes ago, arein0 said:

Not a lawyer, but just glancing at the pdf it looks like with sign-off from the archives, the former President can request to show their documents starting 5 years after their last date (hasn't happened yet) and the current president has the ability to block certain documents for up to 12 years. 

seems like a lot of gray area.

[cbo 8,677]

9 minutes ago, E'Town4Bama said:

seems like a lot of gray area.

So you stated the 5 year requirement as fact, but actually have no idea. 

This kind of thing is not helpful. 

[AU9377 5,995]

47 minutes ago, E'Town4Bama said:

Trump has 5 years to return them or declassify from the end of his administration. 

Oh I see.   The DOJ and U.S. Archives forgot about that.

Now to be serious......

The only person that can declassify a document in the executive branch is the current President, not the former.

[AU9377 5,995]

35 minutes ago, AUFAN78 said:

So we've been led to believe. Also protected by Secret Service (which may not mean what it used to) at the Mar a Lago compound.

 

Hillary's computer hard drive was protected by the Secret Service as well.

[arein0 1,104]

34 minutes ago, E'Town4Bama said:

seems like a lot of gray area.

Really? I'm not seeing any gray area based on what you and I linked.

[AU9377 5,995]

4 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

Not that I am aware of; why is that an issue?

The democratically elected President of the U.S. said he wants to bring down the temperature of the political climate, but he is not including himself in the cooling.  Typical Joe.

You have no problem with the man refusing to admit the fact that he lost the election?  That is just one of many things that you all refuse to hold him accountable for.

[AUFAN78 4,148]

1 minute ago, AU9377 said:

Hillary's computer hard drive was protected by the Secret Service as well.

Remind me. Was she prosecuted?

[AU9377 5,995]

3 hours ago, HAYinthemiddleoftheBARN said:

Oops meant that for cbo

What about the fact that we are producing more oil today than during Trump's presidency?  You obviously believe that decisions to buy and sell oil are controlled by the government.  That is not the case.  

[I_M4_AU 8,914]

2 minutes ago, AU9377 said:

You have no problem with the man refusing to admit the fact that he lost the election?  That is just one of many things that you all refuse to hold him accountable for.

I think the trial in Ga is saying he knew he lost the election and that is part of their RICO case.  Do you expect him to say he lost if he really thinks he didn’t?  Maybe when the Ga case is dropped he will admit he lost, but once again, Biden has been president since Jan 20th of 2021 and I don’t know what other proof you need.

I believe Hillary, deep down in her heart, believes she didn’t lose either.

[AU9377 5,995]

4 minutes ago, AUFAN78 said:

Remind me. Was she prosecuted?

No.  Now explore why....

She cooperated with the investigation.  She sat for an interview with the FBI. She complied.  Trump did none of those things.  All he had to do was to comply with the requests and he would have never been charged.  Instead, he lied to the DOJ thru his legal reps multiple times for no real reason other than to prove he could.

[AU9377 5,995]

Just now, I_M4_AU said:

I think the trial in Ga is saying he knew he lost the election and that is part of their RICO case.  Do you expect him to say he lost if he really thinks he didn’t?  Maybe when the Ga case is dropped he will admit he lost, but once again, Biden has been president since Jan 20th of 2021 and I don’t know what other proof you need.

I believe Hillary, deep down in her heart, believes she didn’t lose either.

She CONCEDED.   Trump didn't have the class or decency to attend the inauguration.  That is pathetic behavior.

[I_M4_AU 8,914]

Just now, AU9377 said:

She CONCEDED.   Trump didn't have the class or decency to attend the inauguration.  That is pathetic behavior.

Not disagreeing about Trump’s actions.  It was almost childish.  He is now the official Republican nominee for president.

[AUFAN78 4,148]

7 minutes ago, AU9377 said:

No.  Now explore why....

She cooperated with the investigation.  She sat for an interview with the FBI. She complied.  Trump did none of those things.  All he had to do was to comply with the requests and he would have never been charged.  Instead, he lied to the DOJ thru his legal reps multiple times for no real reason other than to prove he could.

We'll probably never agree on this issue. I stated long ago, I thought Trump and his team could have handled this better. Having said that, I don't think the raid was necessary. It still feels political much like the James, Bragg, and Willis trials. I feel the same with the E Jean Carroll case.  

[HAYinthemiddleoftheBARN 277]

4 minutes ago, AU9377 said:

What about the fact that we are producing more oil today than during Trump's presidency?  You obviously believe that decisions to buy and sell oil are controlled by the government.  That is not the case.  

Oooo ok, thanks for setting things straight for me about our oil production. But I thought gas prices were better during the Trump presidency. Hmmm! Didn't see any funny "I did that" stickers on gas pumps from 2016 - 2020. You know the ones where Biden is pointing to the absurdly increased price of gas per gallon?!  So you're saying the suffering we all have faced at the pump is "not" due to the democratic party that's been in charge? C'mon man. Corn pop was a bad dude and he even knows when a Democrat gets into office that prices on everything goes up. I remember during Obama's presidency the incredible increased price of fuel per gallon...and I was in his stupid state (Illinois) at the time paying more than $4/gallon! It should never ever be that high. 

You get a Dem, you get suffering from high prices, regardless of how much oil we produce.

[Leftfield 3,347]

1 hour ago, AUFAN78 said:

So we've been led to believe. Also protected by Secret Service (which may not mean what it used to) at the Mar a Lago compound.

While true, they were for Trump's protection, not to guard archives, and testimony from multiple sources say the files were easily accessible, even to guests who might just wander in.

Again, had Trump simply handed everything over, none of this is an issue. In fact, it's not even the gist of the case. I've said repeatedly that if they want to dismiss the retention of classified documents charges, to stay consistent with other politicians, I'm fine with that. For the various obstruction and false statement charges he should absolutely be nailed. 

 

[AU9377 5,995]

1 hour ago, AUFAN78 said:

We'll probably never agree on this issue. I stated long ago, I thought Trump and his team could have handled this better. Having said that, I don't think the raid was necessary. It still feels political much like the James, Bragg, and Willis trials. I feel the same with the E Jean Carroll case.  

I didn't like the Bragg case.  I didn't like the E Jean Carroll case.  That said, the Carroll case would have never seen the light of day had Trump just stopped insulting the woman.  The Georgia case is the direct result of Trump acting like no other President in the history of this country has ever acted post election.  If the Governor of Georgia had not done the right thing, we would have witnessed the first time in history that the results were changed due to the sitting President demanding that be done.  That flies in the face of everything this country is supposed to stand for.

[AU9377 5,995]

1 hour ago, HAYinthemiddleoftheBARN said:

Oooo ok, thanks for setting things straight for me about our oil production. But I thought gas prices were better during the Trump presidency. Hmmm! Didn't see any funny "I did that" stickers on gas pumps from 2016 - 2020. You know the ones where Biden is pointing to the absurdly increased price of gas per gallon?!  So you're saying the suffering we all have faced at the pump is "not" due to the democratic party that's been in charge? C'mon man. Corn pop was a bad dude and he even knows when a Democrat gets into office that prices on everything goes up. I remember during Obama's presidency the incredible increased price of fuel per gallon...and I was in his stupid state (Illinois) at the time paying more than $4/gallon! It should never ever be that high. 

You get a Dem, you get suffering from high prices, regardless of how much oil we produce.

Really?  Funny thing is that didn't happen when Clinton was President.  Obama inherited an economy on the brink and stabilized the entire financial industry while having to give loans to U.S. Auto makers to keep them out of bankruptcy.

You are taking one thing (higher gas prices) and drawing a conclusion based on another unrelated event taking place at the same time.

[auburnatl1 6,108]

12 hours ago, HAYinthemiddleoftheBARN said:

Oooo ok, thanks for setting things straight for me about our oil production. But I thought gas prices were better during the Trump presidency. Hmmm! Didn't see any funny "I did that" stickers on gas pumps from 2016 - 2020. You know the ones where Biden is pointing to the absurdly increased price of gas per gallon?!  So you're saying the suffering we all have faced at the pump is "not" due to the democratic party that's been in charge? C'mon man. Corn pop was a bad dude and he even knows when a Democrat gets into office that prices on everything goes up. I remember during Obama's presidency the incredible increased price of fuel per gallon...and I was in his stupid state (Illinois) at the time paying more than $4/gallon! It should never ever be that high. 

You get a Dem, you get suffering from high prices, regardless of how much oil we produce.

You do understand global economies  and how oil prices are determined right? The 3rd largest oil producer has been cut from the equation for invading and slaughtering 10s of thousands of Ukrainians . Youre up on this and understand this, right?

btw not a bad first try at sarcasm - you’re showing some potential.

Edited July 16 by auburnatl1

[homersapien 12,215]

10 hours ago, AUFAN78 said:

We'll probably never agree on this issue. I stated long ago, I thought Trump and his team could have handled this better. Having said that, I don't think the raid was necessary. It still feels political much like the James, Bragg, and Willis trials. I feel the same with the E Jean Carroll case.  

That's a pretty weak justification for the fact they refused to comply.

[AUFAN78 4,148]

11 hours ago, Leftfield said:

While true, they were for Trump's protection, not to guard archives, and testimony from multiple sources say the files were easily accessible, even to guests who might just wander in.

Again, had Trump simply handed everything over, none of this is an issue. In fact, it's not even the gist of the case. I've said repeatedly that if they want to dismiss the retention of classified documents charges, to stay consistent with other politicians, I'm fi.ne with that. For the various obstruction and false statement charges he should absolutely be nailed. 

 

We disagree. I'm okay with that.

[AUFAN78 4,148]

10 hours ago, AU9377 said:

I didn't like the Bragg case.  I didn't like the E Jean Carroll case.  That said, the Carroll case would have never seen the light of day had Trump just stopped insulting the woman.  The Georgia case is the direct result of Trump acting like no other President in the history of this country has ever acted post election.  If the Governor of Georgia had not done the right thing, we would have witnessed the first time in history that the results were changed due to the sitting President demanding that be done.  That flies in the face of everything this country is supposed to stand for.

I view the Georgia case differently. On that infamous call, and to the best of my recollection, he asked for the results to be reviewed again. His team thought they handily won the state. Ultimately they were wrong. This is not the first time election results have been challenged. 

[AUFAN78 4,148]

2 hours ago, homersapien said:

That's a pretty weak justification for the fact they refused to comply.

It wasn't an attempt at justification. If you recall, Trump's legal team said they were complying. But that's beside the point of my statement. I think diplomacy instead of a raid was the best approach. Look where all this lawfare has gotten us. The temperature in the room is astronomical. Not a fan.

[AU9377 5,995]

8 minutes ago, AUFAN78 said:

I view the Georgia case differently. On that infamous call, and to the best of my recollection, he asked for the results to be reviewed again. His team thought they handily won the state. Ultimately they were wrong. This is not the first time election results have been challenged. 

He aggressively attacked the Republican governor of Georgia and Sec of State because they refused to intervene on his behalf.  It was the right thing to do, but Trump wanted them to do anything but the right thing.  Pence isn't his running mate today because he refused to go along with Trump's plan.  That is obvious.  I understand you point, but I don't see how that isn't a problem.

Had Obama done any of that, Republicans would have demanded that he be hung for treason.