Liberal Democracies Need to Address the Migrant Issue

[auburnatl1 6,307]

21 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

Because I believe the majority of people in this country still hold the values that are what have/can make us a positive force.

However, the government has been sold to the capital class.  Their goals are purely inhumane.  Their only concern is money/power/control.

Real patriotism is not stupid.  Real patriotism is honest and, often critical.

Not to mention, your perception is part of conditioning.  We have been trained to never question the system of capitalism.  This is how you get to the point of worshiping the capitalist and, demanding that capitalism be completely free of any oversight or, regulation.  This is how you get to the point at which capital owns the government.

At the moment, capitalism does NOT represent progress.  It is actually regressive and inhumane.  If that does not change, we will see major social/political/economic disruption, you will see more authoritarianism.  One party is already there.

Do not be afraid of critical analysis.  Be afraid of a dishonest appraisal of where we are, who we are and, how we got here.

 

So if people disagree with you they’re…. conditioned. That’s … tidy. Regardless, there’s 2 parts to being right: 1) be right 2) convincing others that you’re right. If you aren’t succeeding at this either rethink part 1 or work on your part 2. Just a thought.

[icanthearyou 4,468]

28 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

So if people disagree with you they’re…. conditioned.

We have all been trained conditioned to revere the idea of the perfection of capitalism, that it is the only righteous form for an economy.  We have demonized any thoughts of socialism.  It can barely even be discussed.  Although, the more you allow capital to exploit, the more that changes.

You are just a prime example.

And no, being right does not mean you have to convince anyone.  That is a truly ridiculous notion. 

[auburnatl1 6,307]

37 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

And no, being right does not mean you have to convince anyone.  That is a truly ridiculous notion. 

Convincing people is sorta how democracy is supposed to work. It’s autocrats that don’t seem to excel at it.

Debating the pro/cons and viability in the US of socialism (with highly diverse  cultures and  a highly independent predisposition populace - this aint Denmark) isn’t a good use of either of our time.

[icanthearyou 4,468]

15 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

Convincing people is sorta how democracy is supposed to work. It’s autocrats that don’t seem to excel at it.

That is the point.  It's no longer about democracy.  It is about pure power. 

Democracy is not perfect (it isn't always right) but, self correcting.  Power is about nothing other than self interest.  Power doesn't care about right, wrong, the future, humanity or, justice.  Power doesn't even care about productivity.  Power believes in financializaiton, debt, control.

Is our government unduly influenced, even controlled, by the capital class?  Are we still a democracy?  Can you have democracy with extreme inequality, with absurd amounts of money in the process?

 

[autigeremt 7,260]

On 9/19/2023 at 10:54 AM, AU9377 said:

Ronald Reagan granted amnesty.  This is not a recent topic.

Yes he did...but Congress didn't address it from their end, and here we are......still in a muck because of it. 

[autigeremt 7,260]

27 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

That is the point.  It's no longer about democracy.  It is about pure power. 

Democracy is not perfect (it isn't always right) but, self correcting.  Power is about nothing other than self interest.  Power doesn't care about right, wrong, the future, humanity or, justice.  Power doesn't even care about productivity.  Power believes in financializaiton, debt, control.

Is our government unduly influenced, even controlled, by the capital class?  Are we still a democracy?  Can you have democracy with extreme inequality, with absurd amounts of money in the process?

 

A lot of truth in that statement. Money is the root of all evil, and I don't even need to grab up a Bible to know it. Power, greed and absolute control is what drives people in certain circles. The 98% of us catch hell because of it. 

[icanthearyou 4,468]

6 minutes ago, autigeremt said:

A lot of truth in that statement. Money is the root of all evil, and I don't even need to grab up a Bible to know it. Power, greed and absolute control is what drives people in certain circles. The 98% of us catch hell because of it. 

Indeed.  That is why the late 18th century revolutions were concerned with liberty AND equality.

[TexasTiger 14,527]

2 hours ago, auburnatl1 said:

Convincing people is sorta how democracy is supposed to work. It’s autocrats that don’t seem to excel at it.

Debating the pro/cons and viability in the US of socialism (with highly diverse  cultures and  a highly independent predisposition populace - this aint Denmark) isn’t a good use of either of our time.

It’s not Denmark but that doesn’t mean we can’t understand how Denmark actually works. Most Americans have been trained to dismiss Denmark as a socialist country. When I visit I see busy high end stores in abundance and busy restaurants paying a living wage. The staff at McDonalds are pretty competent and friendly. Streets are clean, few homeless folks. Either socialism works really well or…gasp…capitalism can work a whole lot better than it does here.

[auburnatl1 6,307]

1 hour ago, TexasTiger said:

It’s not Denmark but that doesn’t mean we can’t understand how Denmark actually works. Most Americans have been trained to dismiss Denmark as a socialist country. When I visit I see busy high end stores in abundance and busy restaurants paying a living wage. The staff at McDonalds are pretty competent and friendly. Streets are clean, few homeless folks. Either socialism works really well or…gasp…capitalism can work a whole lot better than it does here.

Denmark is wonderful. It’s also has a pop less than Atlanta and is culturally homogenous.To explore your utopian fixation on the Scandinavian model (which has disadvantages), 3 things would have happen: 1) US education levels have to be improved - everything begins there (if you fix that and education levels become more uniform, the economic system almost doesn’t matter) 2) border has to be secure - or we’d be absolutely free-stuff overwhelmed and the system would collapse 3) modify/soften stance on individual rights and religion- the US is largely a by product of people who left behind /rejected Europe. It’s has much more libertarian and religious leanings in its base genetics

Imo do these 3 things and I’ll consider your beloved pixie land model 😎 

[TexasTiger 14,527]

34 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

Denmark is wonderful. It’s also has a pop less than Atlanta and is culturally homogenous.To explore your utopian fixation on the Scandinavian model (which has disadvantages), 3 things would have happen: 1) US education levels have to be improved - everything begins there (if you fix that and education levels become more uniform, the economic system almost doesn’t matter) 2) border has to be secure - or we’d be absolutely free-stuff overwhelmed and the system would collapse 3) modify/soften stance on individual rights and religion- the US is largely a by product of people who left behind /rejected Europe. It’s has much more libertarian and religious leanings in its base genetics

Imo do these 3 things and I’ll consider your beloved pixie land model 😎 

You missed my point and mischaracterized my position. I’m not saying we can be just like Denmark. But this is a gross oversimplification:

Debating the pro/cons and viability in the US of socialism (with highly diverse  cultures and  a highly independent predisposition populace - this aint Denmark) isn’t a good use of either of our time.

Denmark does capitalism pretty well. To assume there’s nothing that can be learned from other countries with market economies is wrong. And you dismissing them as socialist kinda makes one of ICHY’s points.

[auburnatl1 6,307]

24 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

You missed my point and mischaracterized my position. I’m not saying we can be just like Denmark. But this is a gross oversimplification:

Debating the pro/cons and viability in the US of socialism (with highly diverse  cultures and  a highly independent predisposition populace - this aint Denmark) isn’t a good use of either of our time.

Denmark does capitalism pretty well. To assume there’s nothing that can be learned from other countries with market economies is wrong. And you dismissing them as socialist kinda makes one of ICHY’s points.

Got it. No they are not by definition  classical  leftist socialism - I was trying to avoid debating the nuance of preplanned and managed market economies. The main point I was trying to make is that theyre base reasons for financial inequity 1) individual ability and drive - diversity of the species stuff. Not fixable. 2) the systems rigged -ichy’s never ending point about blurring gov and capitalism. Fix it but with extreme caution 3) diversity of education quality - I got my masters at an Ivy and yep it had advantages. This is the biggest issue that’s truly fixable. Its not about free college. It’s too late by then. The most natural and rewarding way for people to be paid more is simply to be worth more. Fixes over 50% of the inequity problem.

Edited September 23, 2023 by auburnatl1

[TexasTiger 14,527]

1 minute ago, auburnatl1 said:

Got it. No they are not by definition  classical  leftist socialism - I was trying to avoid debating the nuance of preplanned and managed market economies. The main point I was trying to make is that their base reasons for financial inequity 1) individual ability and drive - diversity of the species stuff. Not fixable. 2) the systems rigged -ichy’s never ending point about blurring gov and capitalism. Fix it but with extreme caution 3) diversity of education quality - I got my masters at an Ivy and yep it had advantages. This is the biggest issue that’s truly fixable. Its not about free college. It’s too late by then. The most natural and rewarding way for people to be paid more is simply to be worth more. Fixes over 50% of the inequity problem.

Their capitalism is thriving, but isn’t unbridled— it’s a collaboration between capital and labor. Our “capitalism” has been increasingly crony capitalism for decades. Our leaders are largely in big business’ pockets. Yes, there are other societal issues that are much harder to “fix” and their homogeneity makes many issues “easier” to address. But paying living wages to folks in the service industry can help in moving the needle. The current autoworkers strike has labor saying wait— if you can raise ceo salaries 40%, why can’t we get more, too? 21% sounds pretty good until you compare to CEOs getting twice the raise when they’re already very well paid. We’re out of balance. That’s a problem.

[auburnatl1 6,307]

10 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Their capitalism is thriving, but isn’t unbridled— it’s a collaboration between capital and labor. Our “capitalism” has been increasingly crony capitalism for decades. Our leaders are largely in big business’ pockets. Yes, there are other societal issues that are much harder to “fix” and their homogeneity makes many issues “easier” to address. But paying living wages to folks in the service industry can help in moving the needle. The current autoworkers strike has labor saying wait— if you can raise ceo salaries 40%, why can’t we get more, too? 21% sounds pretty good until you compare to CEOs getting twice the raise when they’re already very well paid. We’re out of balance. That’s a problem.

Is it fair that an elite nfl qb makes over 50 times more than a second string LB? I understand your point but there’s a viciousness to individual supply and demand valuation. However, I too agree with this strike (the disparity stinks especially with a pretty average talen/ impact ceo) - so long as they don’t push so hard that they end up moving manufacturing jobs back overseas. It’s not just about margins, it’s also about self defeating inflation (which then raises interest rates). 

[TexasTiger 14,527]

20 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

Is it fair that an elite nfl qb makes over 50 times more than a second string LB? I understand your point but there’s a viciousness to individual supply and demand valuation. However, I too agree with this strike (the disparity stinks especially with a pretty average talen/ impact ceo) - so long as they don’t push so hard that they end up moving manufacturing jobs back overseas. It’s not just about margins, it’s also about self defeating inflation (which then raises interest rates). 

CEO pay in this country often rewards those whose relative talents are on par with practice squad QBs. I have no problem with good CEO’s doing well. But when they’re already making millions and guaranteed a golden parachute if they fail, what percentage increase do they need? Twice that of workers? I don’t think workers should get the 40%. 21% is good. But I don’t think the CEOs need it either. That reflects the price gouging that’s driving much of our inflation.

But are QB’s the best analogy to CEOs or are coaches? 😉

[auburnatl1 6,307]

3 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

CEO pay in this country often rewards those whose relative talents are on par with practice squad QBs. I have no problem with good CEO’s doing well. But when they’re already making millions and guaranteed a golden parachute if they fail, what percentage increase do they need? Twice that of workers? I don’t think workers should get the 40%. 21% is good. But I don’t think the CEOs need it either. That reflects the price gouging that’s driving much of our inflation.

Fair. Fixing corp boards is the solution. That’s their role, ceo reports to them, and they’ve  been lazy and regressing in their oversight for decades. The SEC needs to up their governance in this area. Biden has the latitude to push for that (sometimes I don’t think his admin understands how our economy works and where the pressure points are - they’re missing a smart guy).

[SaltyTiger 8,679]

12 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Twice that of workers? I don’t think workers should get the 40%. 21% is good. But I don’t think the CEOs need it either. That reflects the price gouging that’s driving much of our inflation.

Are you saying spread the CEOs additional 19% across the board or fork out more by reducing margin, increase pricing?
 

Good thread. Some good stuff ICHY included.

[TexasTiger 14,527]

2 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

Are you saying spread the CEOs additional 19% across the board or fork out more by reducing margin, increase pricing?
 

Good thread. Some good stuff ICHY included.

I think the unions have a valid frustration in saying their percentage of raises shouldn’t be half that of CEOs. I don’t think the answer is 40% raises across the board. Car prices were driven way up due to chip shortages. They are increasingly out of reach to the masses. I’d rather see prices come down than anyone get a 40% raise. I think the CEOs would be wise to peg their increases to the workers and resolve this strike. Pretty sure the CEOs will all be fine.

[auburnatl1 6,307]

4 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

Are you saying spread the CEOs additional 19% across the board or fork out more by reducing margin, increase pricing?
 

Good thread. Some good stuff ICHY included.

Hopefully we beat tamu tomorrow and this thread will die  for a couple of days with sheer euphoria. But if we get smoked we can meet back here and tear each other to pieces😇

[SaltyTiger 8,679]

2 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

Hopefully we beat tamu tomorrow and this thread will die  for a couple of days with sheer euphoria. But if we get smoked we can meet back here and tear each other to pieces😇

We will be fine tomorrow. 

[auburnatl1 6,307]

23 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

 

.Some good stuff ICHY included.

Btw nice point about @icanthearyou. When hes restrained and not just carpet bombing people, states, or the whole damn country - he has very solid points and provides a provocative   balance thats useful.

Edited September 23, 2023 by auburnatl1

[SaltyTiger 8,679]

5 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

Btw nice point about @icanthearyou. When hes restrained and not just carpet bombing people, states, or the whole damn country - he has very solid points and provides a provocative   balance thats useful.

You and I will  both will get a facepalm tomorrow. 

 

 

[SaltyTiger 8,679]

On 9/18/2023 at 1:41 PM, I_M4_AU said:

Is the border secure?

No….Mexico refused to pay for the wall.

[TexasTiger 14,527]

22 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

You and I will  both will get a facepalm tomorrow. 

 

 

Didn’t want to make you wait. 😉

[AU9377 6,122]

12 hours ago, auburnatl1 said:

Fair. Fixing corp boards is the solution. That’s their role, ceo reports to them, and they’ve  been lazy and regressing in their oversight for decades. The SEC needs to up their governance in this area. Biden has the latitude to push for that (sometimes I don’t think his admin understands how our economy works and where the pressure points are - they’re missing a smart guy).

Boards, too many times, work in the U.S. like they work in many other places.  They are ceremonial type positions more than they are governing bodies.  A board position often comes with a nice check for meeting a couple times a year and approving whatever is presented.

[auburnatl1 6,307]

13 hours ago, SaltyTiger said:

You and I will  both will get a facepalm tomorrow. 

 

 

I got one, you didn’t. Knew I was the favorite.