Military to Allow Calculators in Entrance Exam

[arein0 1,110]

1 minute ago, I_M4_AU said:

I taught my kids (all 3 boys) on a stick shift.  You have to think more driving a stick than and an automatic.

Manual cars also have a free anti theft feature built in. 😉

[I_M4_AU 9,058]

2 minutes ago, arein0 said:

Manual cars also have a free anti theft feature built in. 😉

Very true.

[LPTiger 5,533]

5 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

Well, they’re going to get worse.  And that’s the point.  I’m old school; I taught my kids (all 3 boys) on a stick shift.  You have to think more driving a stick than and an automatic, I hope it ingrained in them a sense of driving how the road demands and not just gas and break.

I also spent 34 years as a pilot and saw first hand how flying manually is diminished by automation.  There is a trade off as when the *sh!t hits the fan* automation can free up the mind to tend to essentials duties, you just have to know when to switch to the automation and how to manage that automation.  So you have to be have the same confidence in your ability whether in automation or manually manipulating the controls.

Flying has changed so much over the years.   I fly fairly regular on a CJ3.   I always like to fly up front.   Our pilot has hands on controls for takeoff and for about 2 minutes after and usually puts them back on once he announces airport in sight.   In the interim other than check ins, altitude approvals and handoffs, we talk about raising kids, hunting, fishing and the AP executes perfect climb outs, course corrections....   

[I_M4_AU 9,058]

6 minutes ago, LPTiger said:

Flying has changed so much over the years.   I fly fairly regular on a CJ3.   I always like to fly up front.   Our pilot has hands on controls for takeoff and for about 2 minutes after and usually puts them back on once he announces airport in sight.   In the interim other than check ins, altitude approvals and handoffs, we talk about raising kids, hunting, fishing and the AP executes perfect climb outs, course corrections....   

yep, that’s really all you need since your pilot has been through all kinds of training.  The takeoff is the most crucial, low speed and close to the ground with the inertia building.  The landing is the fun part as you get to make decisions based on what you see outside and how well you know the performance of the aircraft.

Sometimes I used to fly the arrival from about 20,000 on down just to make the brain work a little harder.  Talking about important stuff when the flight is mundane is also important.  You can solve the problems of the world during those times.

[LPTiger 5,533]

18 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

yep, that’s really all you need since your pilot has been through all kinds of training.  The takeoff is the most crucial, low speed and close to the ground with the inertia building.  The landing is the fun part as you get to make decisions based on what you see outside and how well you know the performance of the aircraft.

Sometimes I used to fly the arrival from about 20,000 on down just to make the brain work a little harder.  Talking about important stuff when the flight is mundane is also important.  You can solve the problems of the world during those times.

What all have you flown?   Which was the most fun to fly?

[I_M4_AU 9,058]

Just now, LPTiger said:

What all have you flown?   Which was the most fun to fly?

B737, FO and Captain and Check Airman; Fokker F28, Captain; B727 Flight Engineer and Captain; Airbus A320 Captain and Check Airman; and Airbus A330 Captain and Check Airman.

Just flying the most fun was the B727, for the mission it was Airbus A330.  At the time I flew the B727 it was mostly hand flying with little AP, by the time I check out and taught on the Airbus A330 is was heavily automation.  So much so, that we had to include in our simulator curriculum sections of hand flying for proficiency.

[SLAG-91 1,625]

1 hour ago, I_M4_AU said:

I will predict, and we see it now, that American’s self driving skills will diminish in a few years as self driving cars appear.  The reliance on automation weakens the mind.  That reliance on automation allows the operator to focus on other things that should be more important, but the human brain can get complacent in a heartbeat.

In some very fundamental ways, this is absolutely true.

For example, some kids know how to get their fancy TI-NSpires with a CAS (Computer Algebra System) to say, solve an absolute value equation, but you give them a pencil and paper and ask them if THEY actually know how to do it, a fair number of them cannot. The hard-wired skill of knowing the process isn't as valued any longer, and that is not a good thing.

I still have students take handwritten notes about half the time, and I don't care if I'm called a Luddite. Hand-to-brain connection is very important, but gets ignored a lot now because it's not convenient.

Hell, how many of us remember phone numbers as well as we used to? I know I don't, but we used to have to remember them...at a minimum, you had the hand-to-brain act of writing it down in a Rolodex. 

I've gone off-topic some, but being overly reliant on gadgets comes with its own pitfalls.

[aubiefifty 18,454]

wow we have a lot of pilots on here.jj is one. anyone know who all the fact of getting in a metal tube and screaming through the sky is not my most pleasant thought. i do admire the art and the skill. i loved the top guns and the movie midway had some great air stuff. weird that scares me but i would ride a sportster right now if i had one. i hate i let mine go.

[arein0 1,110]

8 minutes ago, SLAG-91 said:

In some very fundamental ways, this is absolutely true.

For example, some kids know how to get their fancy TI-NSpires with a CAS (Computer Algebra System) to say, solve an absolute value equation, but you give them a pencil and paper and ask them if THEY actually know how to do it, a fair number of them cannot. The hard-wired skill of knowing the process isn't as valued any longer, and that is not a good thing.

I see your point about tech reliance causing issues for some students. But people have different ways of learning. I used to write programs on my calculator that showed the whole problem-solving process. While it's vital to know how things work behind the scenes, this hands-on approach really helped me do a deep dive on the subject and introduce me to / improve my programming at the same time. Funny thing is, I learned so much about the subject that I ended up helping my classmates.

[SLAG-91 1,625]

1 hour ago, arein0 said:

I see your point about tech reliance causing issues for some students. But people have different ways of learning. I used to write programs on my calculator that showed the whole problem-solving process. While it's vital to know how things work behind the scenes, this hands-on approach really helped me do a deep dive on the subject and introduce me to / improve my programming at the same time. Funny thing is, I learned so much about the subject that I ended up helping my classmates.

The ones capable of, for example, writing a program in an NSpire to do something beyond what the default solving systems will do typically have very good basic skills and could do something like I mentioned either manually or with a solver.

The ones I was referring to as being overly tech dependent are the ones that just type an equation into NSolve and hit enter without any idea what's behind it.

[DKW 86 7,947]

16 hours ago, homersapien said:

Yeah right. 

Let's see, 8÷(12,000×60)  Anybody got a pencil......BOOM!

You guys are funny.

 

How about  hiring people that can do that math in their head, and give the order in a second?

[arein0 1,110]

1 hour ago, DKW 86 said:

How about  hiring people that can do that math in their head, and give the order in a second?

Why rely on someone doing the math in their head and hope they are right when the radar detection probably has the calculation built in. They already know the coordinates of your troops and they are picking up the speed and location of the missile. Seems like a very easily built in calculation. Also, you could have your radar talk to the SAM so you don't have to worry about missing an order or human error.

[LPTiger 5,533]

15 hours ago, SLAG-91 said:

.

For example, some kids know how to get their fancy TI-NSpires with a CAS (Computer Algebra System) to say, solve an absolute value equation, 

I

I wish I had some clue as to what this means (as I pull out my Oughtred slide rule).

[homersapien 12,325]

23 hours ago, CoffeeTiger said:

Yes, and I'm sure the people in charge of those situations receive a lot more training and education for those situations.

I don't buy the argument that allowing calculators in the ASVAB means we're suddenly going to be putting idiots who cant do basic math into critical positions that require it. 

Calculators offer zero advantage in a well designed examination.  The point of such questions is to present the logic of the math, not to do the math with a pencil and paper.

A calculator is useless unless you know the proper inputs and their relationship.  It's the latter that is being asked.

[homersapien 12,325]

5 hours ago, LPTiger said:

I wish I had some clue as to what this means (as I pull out my Oughtred slide rule).

True story:  When I was in college, calculators were too expensive for me.  The first one I ever used was supplied by my first employer.

I didn't fully trust it.  I would punch in some factors and the answer just magically appeared. 

For a while, I used my slide rule to check it.  

[homersapien 12,325]

8 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

How about  hiring people that can do that math in their head, and give the order in a second?

A military that consisted of mathematical savants would be a very small military indeed!

[homersapien 12,325]

15 minutes ago, homersapien said:

A military that consisted of mathematical savants would be a very small military indeed!

Not to mention the fact that - given the parameters you provided - they would have only 0.0001 seconds to do the calculation.

(If my math is correct.   )

[arein0 1,110]

1 hour ago, homersapien said:

Not to mention the fact that - given the parameters you provided - they would have only 0.0001 seconds to do the calculation.

(If my math is correct.   )

All done in your head, right? 

[homersapien 12,325]

9 minutes ago, arein0 said:

All done in your head, right? 

Only the conversion from scientific notation to straight decimal.  (I can count to 4.  )

 

Edited August 23, 2023 by homersapien

[homersapien 12,325]

Wooooops!  I messed up.    So my math was actually wrong.

I multiplied 1200 by 60 when I should have divided.  So the incoming missile is actually traveling at 20 miles per second.

So they had 0.4 seconds to make the decision.

(At least I got in before someone corrected me.   Today must be the day for lawyers instead of engineers. )

Ironic, but it still makes my point - maybe even emphasizes it.

Edited August 23, 2023 by homersapien

[arein0 1,110]

1 hour ago, homersapien said:

Wooooops!  I messed up.    So my math was actually wrong.

I multiplied 1200 by 60 when I should have divided.  So the incoming missile is actually traveling at 20 miles per second.

So they had 0.4 seconds to make the decision.

(At least I got in before someone corrected me.   Today must be the day for lawyers instead of engineers. )

Ironic, but it still makes my point - maybe even emphasizes it.

I think you are still wrong on your answer 

To convert 1200 mph to mps, you need to divide 1200 by 3600 (60 min in an hour and 60 sec per min). That gets you 1/3 mps. 8 miles ÷ 1/3 mps = 24 seconds

[homersapien 12,325]

19 hours ago, arein0 said:

I think you are still wrong on your answer 

To convert 1200 mph to mps, you need to divide 1200 by 3600 (60 min in an hour and 60 sec per min). That gets you 1/3 mps. 8 miles ÷ 1/3 mps = 24 seconds

I can't be wrong. I had a calculator.

[DKW 86 7,947]

On 8/23/2023 at 8:01 AM, arein0 said:

Why rely on someone doing the math in their head and hope they are right when the radar detection probably has the calculation built in. They already know the coordinates of your troops and they are picking up the speed and location of the missile. Seems like a very easily built in calculation. Also, you could have your radar talk to the SAM so you don't have to worry about missing an order or human error.

Man, obviously too many video games for you huh? IRL, you must ascertain whether the info is valid. Whether the trajectories are true. Who shot first? What did they actually shoot? 

Meet Stanislav Petrov, they guy that didn't believe the equipment and may have stopped a nuclear exchange. You need competent, critical thinkers in charge. 

https://www.armscontrol.org/act/2017-10/news-briefs/man-saved-world-dies-77#:~:text=Stanislav Petrov%2C a little-known,Petrov was on duty Sept.

[DKW 86 7,947]

20 hours ago, arein0 said:

I think you are still wrong on your answer 

To convert 1200 mph to mps, you need to divide 1200 by 3600 (60 min in an hour and 60 sec per min). That gets you 1/3 mps. 8 miles ÷ 1/3 mps = 24 seconds

IOW, Horizon to Impact is about 24 seconds using your calculations. 

The resolution would be 24 seconds minus missile target activation. My point is that the dumbass with the calculator doesn't have time to do the calculation AND order the shoot since his batteries are dead.

Edited August 24, 2023 by DKW 86

[homersapien 12,325]

18 minutes ago, DKW 86 said:

IOW, Horizon to Impact is about 24 seconds using your calculations. 

The resolution would be 24 seconds minus missile target activation. My point is that the dumbass with the calculator doesn't have time to do the calculation AND order the shoot since his batteries are dead.

Which is exactly why all of these system are based on internal computer capability.

Or in other words: they are great big "calculators" that can automatically fire weaponry.

Bottom line: There's nothing wrong with allowing calculators for recruitment tests, unless you want to establish potential recruits have grammar school skills.