Georgia Grand Jury Returns 10 out of 10 Charges

[TexasTiger 14,527]

8 hours ago, LPTiger said:

China is communist.   Who cares....   UK and France are the appropriate comparators.    Both grew GDP more than us in both years and both grew it more in 22 than 21 wherein we didn't.   

Well, with all due respect, I’m gonna make a prediction. If he’s the nominee, you vote for him while claiming to hold your nose. Despite your stated disdain for Trump, you strike me as little different than the many who’ve stated discontent just to rationalize continuing to vote for the guy regardless of what evidence comes to light. It became clear to me in the wake of 2016 that if supporters ever came to see Trump for at least of fraction of what he is they’d have to convince themselves that Hillary was far worse and thus, they were justified. That pattern has continued.
 

Now, he’s not only been found by a jury to be a rapist, if folks had convinced themselves his own words on the access Hollywood tape weren’t real, he’s been issued what you’d call “damning” indictments (although you won’t read them) for intentionally taking and concealing highly sensitive national security docs, lying about them, and conspiring to overturn an election like a banana republic dictator— there was a time not too long ago where virtually all Americans would have found this alone sufficient to decide he was supremely unfit for office. We are no longer shockable as a people— one of Trump’s legacies. 
 

His supporters (meaning those who ultimately vote for him, despite claiming not to support him) dismiss all this, saying the opposition is even worse and convincing themselves that despite the chaos and self absorption so evident, he was somehow a genius on the economy, even though all he did on that front was not upset the trajectory we we’re already on. He took a positive trajectory from an almost collapsed economy to steady growth and juiced it with free money and a huge tax cut for the wealthy that ballooned the deficit. Nothing complicated about it. For most of those 4 years there were sufficient guardrails— establishment Republicans approved largely mainstream conservative cabinet leaders. Those will be gone in a second term. He will have zero restraints on his worst impulses.

Folks believing all this don’t go too deep— they just look for reasons to continue supporting a man so grossly amoral and vile it’s highly infectious to most in his orbit. They say they don’t want to. They say they find him objectionable. But they tell themselves they have no choice. They’re victims, really! They look for things like minor differences in economic numbers of allies as evidence of a “crippled economy” despite predictions of a recession deemed “unavoidable” fading away (I can’t help but note that using “crippled” in this way smacks of Trump-like hyperbole.) They insist the opposition is criminal— in fact, far more so, but the evidence is suppressed. Rinse, lather, repeat.

[Mikey 16,781]

23 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

I am sticking to my position.  He's unfit for office.  Completely and utterly.  There are zero excuses for voting for him in any election.

But on top of that, he should never make it out of the primary.  It's an absolute embarrassment and scandal that he's still polling as the overwhelming favorite to win the GOP nomination for 2024.  And it's not enough to sit back and say "well, I'd prefer someone else but I'll vote for him anyway in the end."  To whatever degree you downplay or minimize what he's done to make himself unfit for office, you're an enabler.  

And the only way the GOP (both the leadership AND the primary voters) are going to get it through their cast iron skulls to stop supporting him for nominations is if sane people stop supporting him in general elections simply because he's got an "R" behind his name on the ballot.  If you want better candidates, you have to send a message by refusing to support morally and ethically unfit candidates in the end.  When you fail to do that, the message you send is, "I'm an auto vote for whatever s**t sandwich you'll offer us" and you give zero incentive for people to align behind more reasonable options.  When enough GOP voters grow a set and stop supporting people just because they're the nominee, things will change.

Again, if the option is Biden or Trump, both are morally and ethically unfit candidates. If that unhappy option is what we are presented with, then vote for the morally and ethically unfit candidate whose policies are best for the nation. That's Trump.

[Mikey 16,781]

23 hours ago, AuCivilEng1 said:

Curious as to what Democrats would get your vote over a Republican? 
 

I purposely can’t say that there are any Republicans that trump a vote for a democrat unless that Democrat was clearly not a democrat (Kennedy, Gabbard, etc). I would vote for a John Kasich, Cheney, or Romney over Kennedy. 
 

Who do you like on the opposite side?
 

 

Tulsi Gabbard. Maybe Kennedy as a distant second. Keep in mind, as embarrassing as it is to admit this, I voted for Obama the first time. He is a smooth talkin' SOB and I bought his sales pitch, so I'm not entirely partisan. I even was hopeful about Obama until he went on his "Apologize for America" tour. Then I had to listen to my (smarter than me) wife mock me for over three years.

[TitanTiger 21,558]

8 minutes ago, Mikey said:

Again, if the option is Biden or Trump, both are morally and ethically unfit candidates. If that unhappy option is what we are presented with, then vote for the morally and ethically unfit candidate whose policies are best for the nation. That's Trump.

Which is why you keep getting s***ty candidates like Trump on the GOP side.  They know you're a reliable sucker.  Until you and others like you are willing to make them pay for that stance, you won't get anything better.

It's like having a kid who is living on their own but you still help out financially while they're getting started.  But they're irresponsible with money.  You keep trying to tell them that they need to craft a reasonable budget and you even show them how.  You explain that you have to account for expenses like groceries and have money set aside for emergencies like car repairs.

But the kid keeps blowing all their money and the money you give them on frivolous stuff.  One month they're buying a $600 game console and the next it's blowing money on clothes, or a car stereo system or concert tickets.  And at the end of the month the fridge and pantry are empty, and they're going to be short on rent or can't put gas in the car.  

Now, you can give them more money to get them through and there might be a grace period for them to adjust to how to stick to a budget where you get them out of their mess.  But at some point, unless you want the kid to be irresponsible and financially dependent on you the rest of their life, if they refuse to adjust their spending behavior, you have to stop supporting them.  Cut off the extra money.  Let them eat ramen and hitch rides the rest of the month.  You may even get to where you stop supporting them financially in ANY way if the issue persists.

This is where we are with the GOP and Trump's primary voters and general election voters.  You can talk a good game all day about how you'd support 5, 6, 10 other candidates ahead of him.  You can point out how counterproductive his behavior is to conservative goals long term and how other candidates can implement most of the same sorts of policies minus the criminality, lying and other drama.  But so long as you bail their ass out every general election by voting for him anyway, they'll keep supporting unfit a**holes for the nomination and you'll never see any of the other types of candidates that you prefer and would be better.

The choice to continue voting for Trump is shortsighted and undermines any desire you have to get better choices as nominees.

[Mikey 16,781]

18 hours ago, LPTiger said:

TT, negative ghost rider -- Canada and Japan have lower inflation rates than us.   And, when has the historical greatest economy in the world ever judged itself by "granted consumer prices are up 15% since our current president took office but look we are better than some others."   Isn't that whataboutism.   The real question is whether this president has made the situation worse or better.  My opinion and your opinion here matters very little, but the vast majority of Americans answer the question as he has made it worse.   those opinions matter.   China is currently undergoing the opposite problem as the US.   They are in deflation.  I'll say for the 100th time.   I'm not a Trump fan.  I find him reprehensible.   But, I also find Biden reprehensible.   I believe he too has committed serious crimes.   At a minimum he is a serial liar and his intentional mistreatment of his granddaughter is beyond anything I can even imagine.    It amazes me how the majority of democrats just dismiss this critical character flaw as a "personal family issue."   

Well said. I don't know if the anti-Trumpers on this board are actually incapable of understanding that preferring Trump over Biden doesn't make one a Trump supporter, or if they simply choose to ignore it because that doesn't support their rantings.

[Mikey 16,781]

14 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Which is why you keep getting s***ty candidates like Trump on the GOP side.  They know you're a reliable sucker.  Until you and others like you are willing to make them pay for that stance, you won't get anything better.

It's like having a kid who is living on their own but you still help out financially while they're getting started.  But they're irresponsible with money.  You keep trying to tell them that they need to craft a reasonable budget and you even show them how.  You explain that you have to account for expenses like groceries and have money set aside for emergencies like car repairs.

But the kid keeps blowing all their money and the money you give them on frivolous stuff.  One month they're buying a $600 game console and the next it's blowing money on clothes, or a car stereo system or concert tickets.  And at the end of the month the fridge and pantry are empty, and they're going to be short on rent or can't put gas in the car.  

Now, you can give them more money to get them through and there might be a grace period for them to adjust to how to stick to a budget where you get them out of their mess.  But at some point, unless you want the kid to be irresponsible and financially dependent on you the rest of their life, if they refuse to adjust their spending behavior, you have to stop supporting them.  Cut off the extra money.  Let them eat ramen and hitch rides the rest of the month.  You may even get to where you stop supporting them financially in ANY way if the issue persists.

This is where we are with the GOP and Trump's primary voters and general election voters.  You can talk a good game all day about how you'd support 5, 6, 10 other candidates ahead of him.  You can point out how counterproductive his behavior is to conservative goals long term and how other candidates can implement most of the same sorts of policies minus the criminality, lying and other drama.  But so long as you bail their ass out every general election by voting for him anyway, they'll keep supporting unfit a**holes for the nomination and you'll never see any of the other types of candidates that you prefer and would be better.

The choice to continue voting for Trump is shortsighted and undermines any desire you have to get better choices as nominees.

If the choice is between Biden and Trump, then the choice is between one scoundrel and another scoundrel. What you are advocating is voting for the scoundrel whose policies are worse for this nation. That doesn't make any sense. Let the Democrats come up with an acceptable candidate and the story changes. Likely neither scoundrel will be on the ticket come November of 2024 but if it's Trump vs. Biden, then the best vote is for Trump. The Dems need better nominees just as much as the Pubbies do.

[LPTiger 5,533]

19 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Which is why you keep getting s***ty candidates like Trump on the GOP side.  They know you're a reliable sucker.  Until you and others like you are willing to make them pay for that stance, you won't get anything better.

It's like having a kid who is living on their own but you still help out financially while they're getting started.  But they're irresponsible with money.  You keep trying to tell them that they need to craft a reasonable budget and you even show them how.  You explain that you have to account for expenses like groceries and have money set aside for emergencies like car repairs.

But the kid keeps blowing all their money and the money you give them on frivolous stuff.  One month they're buying a $600 game console and the next it's blowing money on clothes, or a car stereo system or concert tickets.  And at the end of the month the fridge and pantry are empty, and they're going to be short on rent or can't put gas in the car.  

Now, you can give them more money to get them through and there might be a grace period for them to adjust to how to stick to a budget where you get them out of their mess.  But at some point, unless you want the kid to be irresponsible and financially dependent on you the rest of their life, if they refuse to adjust their spending behavior, you have to stop supporting them.  Cut off the extra money.  Let them eat ramen and hitch rides the rest of the month.  You may even get to where you stop supporting them financially in ANY way if the issue persists.

This is where we are with the GOP and Trump's primary voters and general election voters.  You can talk a good game all day about how you'd support 5, 6, 10 other candidates ahead of him.  You can point out how counterproductive his behavior is to conservative goals long term and how other candidates can implement most of the same sorts of policies minus the criminality, lying and other drama.  But so long as you bail their ass out every general election by voting for him anyway, they'll keep supporting unfit a**holes for the nomination and you'll never see any of the other types of candidates that you prefer and would be better.

The choice to continue voting for Trump is shortsighted and undermines any desire you have to get better choices as nominees.

TT, we all understand the serious flaws that are Trump and you feel everyone that voted for him are suckers.   Other than "he is better than Trump" tell us please -- why Biden?  Give us a list of qualities and accomplishments that entitle him to 4 more years.   He just said he was in Pittsburg and personally watched the bridge collapse.   He has either lied once more, or worse, he actually believes he was there and witnessed it.  

[TitanTiger 21,558]

5 minutes ago, Mikey said:

If the choice is between Biden and Trump, then the choice is between one scoundrel and another scoundrel. What you are advocating is voting for the scoundrel whose policies are worse for this nation. That doesn't make any sense. Let the Democrats come up with an acceptable candidate and the story changes. Likely neither scoundrel will be on the ticket come November of 2024 but if it's Trump vs. Biden, then the best vote is for Trump. The Dems need better nominees just as much as the Pubbies do.

What I'm advocating for is an end to being offered s***ty scoundrels from the GOP.  What you're advocating for it enabling them to continue serving you the same s*** sandwich and you dutifully voting for them no matter what.  If the GOP wakes the **** up and offers good candidates, they'll beat the Dems and the Dems will be forced to adjust.

[Mikey 16,781]

2 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

What I'm advocating for is an end to being offered s***ty scoundrels from the GOP.  What you're advocating for it enabling them to continue serving you the same s*** sandwich and you dutifully voting for them no matter what.  If the GOP wakes the **** up and offers good candidates, they'll beat the Dems and the Dems will be forced to adjust.

You speak as though the Democrats aren't offering a s***ty candidate. They are.

[TitanTiger 21,558]

7 minutes ago, LPTiger said:

TT, we all understand the serious flaws that are Trump and you feel everyone that voted for him are suckers.   Other than "he is better than Trump" tell us please -- why Biden?  Give us a list of qualities and accomplishments that entitle him to 4 more years.   He just said he was in Pittsburg and personally watched the bridge collapse.   He has either lied once more, or worse, he actually believes he was there and witnessed it.  

The response to why Trump is unfit for office isn't "why Biden?"  One doesn't have to vote for Biden.  One can start now by vigorously and loudly supporting other GOP candidates and making it known that they will not be voting for Trump if he's the nominee.  Put the GOP leadership and Trump's sycophants on notice - that their belief that they can ignore you and force Trump through by their cultish devotion and you'll fall in line in Nov 2024 is a grave tactical error that will end in defeat.  They will ignore you at their peril.  And then follow through.  

It's the only thing that will finally break this cult and their slavish devotion to Trump, and it's the only thing that will give normal conservatives the evidence they need and courage to stop placating him and his followers.  Yes, four more years of Biden will stink.  But this country is resilient and they'll come back.  If you want your party back, stop being a reliable sucker.  Make them take you seriously.  Abstain from voting for president or vote third party and make it clear to your GOP buddies that you're ******* serious about it if they ramrod this morally unfit crap candidate through again.

[TitanTiger 21,558]

Just now, Mikey said:

You speak as though the Democrats aren't offering a s***ty candidate. They are.

s***ty, but not as s***ty.  

And like I say, if the GOP stops putting losers like Trump up, they will adjust and offer you better candidates.  And those better candidates will force the Dems to adjust as well.

[Mikey 16,781]

7 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

s***ty, but not as s***ty.  

 

Our opinions differ.

[auburnatl1 6,301]

Imo trump is unfit in every way. If forced to pick between a traitor and dementia, I’ll pick dementia and vote Republican for the Congressional candidates - hoping for 4 years of gridlock. Hopefully the parties will present superior options. Which is basically anyone else with a pulse.

[Mikey 16,781]

Just now, auburnatl1 said:

Imo trump is unfit in every way. If forced to pick between a traitor and dementia, I’ll pick dementia and vote Republican for the Congressional candidates - hoping for 4 years of gridlock. Hopefully the parties will present superior options. Which is basically anyone else with a pulse.

We should start some sort of betting pool on who the eventual nominees will be. My best guess at this time is that neither Trump nor Biden will be on the ticket.

[auburnatl1 6,301]

8 minutes ago, Mikey said:

We should start some sort of betting pool on who the eventual nominees will be. My best guess at this time is that neither Trump nor Biden will be on the ticket.

Hope so.  With Biden I can see either his health or legal issues causing him to bow out. And with trump - the sheer number of legal issues and the optics of them (the ga recordings are a really bad look)  may collapse his candidacy. Will see  

[TexasTiger 14,527]

26 minutes ago, Mikey said:

We should start some sort of betting pool on who the eventual nominees will be. My best guess at this time is that neither Trump nor Biden will be on the ticket.

If not Trump, Scott or Youngkin 

[auburnatl1 6,301]

7 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

If not Trump, Scott or Youngkin 

If it were Christmas and you could pick the 2 candidates with the strongest appeal to independents it’d be M Obama v Youngkin imo.  

[TitanTiger 21,558]

As they say, insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.  If you keep saying Trump isn't your choice, is a s***ty candidate, that he shouldn't be the nominee and you want better ones, but you keep faithfully voting for him, then expecting to get candidates closer to what you'd like to see is insanity - a completely delusional pipe dream.

If you want a change in the kind of candidates you're offered, you have to change the way you vote.  It's really that simple.

[LPTiger 5,533]

33 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

Hope so.  With Biden I can see either his health or legal issues causing him to bow out. And with trump - the sheer number of legal issues and the optics of them (the ga recordings are a really bad look)  may collapse his candidacy. Will see  

Maybe in the debates one candidate will lay out an appealing case that Trump can't beat Biden and that he doesn't deserve a second chance.    Maybe another candidate will lay out a compelling case that he is unfit.   I hear what Titan is saying about not voting for Trump, and it would be great if we could somehow convince 30,000,000 others to do the same. But none of us have the ability to impact 30,000,000 people.   It is going to take something dramatic to quickly change the minds of lots of people.    

[TexasTiger 14,527]

8 minutes ago, LPTiger said:

Maybe in the debates one candidate will lay out an appealing case that Trump can't beat Biden and that he doesn't deserve a second chance.    Maybe another candidate will lay out a compelling case that he is unfit.   I hear what Titan is saying about not voting for Trump, and it would be great if we could somehow convince 30,000,000 others to do the same. But none of us have the ability to impact 30,000,000 people.   It is going to take something dramatic to quickly change the minds of lots of people.    

Chris Christie is the only one capable. 

[LPTiger 5,533]

Christie sure has the bonafides to say he once had my full and complete support but then x, y, z happened.   The flip side is he can rub people the wrong way so they could just tune him out.   I have been impressed with Vivek's intellectual ability and poise.   I don't know enough about him to know if he is willing to go on the attack.   Pence might be able to do it since he was on the inside and can really bring 1/6 to life. 

[TexasTiger 14,527]

13 minutes ago, LPTiger said:

Christie sure has the bonafides to say he once had my full and complete support but then x, y, z happened.   The flip side is he can rub people the wrong way so they could just tune him out.   I have been impressed with Vivek's intellectual ability and poise.   I don't know enough about him to know if he is willing to go on the attack.   Pence might be able to do it since he was on the inside and can really bring 1/6 to life. 

Pence is too weak and measured. Vivek will dance around it.  Christie will savor the fight & get under Trump’s skin.

[TitanTiger 21,558]

Just now, TexasTiger said:

Pence is too weak and measured. Vivek will dance around it.  Christie will savor the fight & get under Trump’s skin.

I know it's completely superficial, but most of what has kept Christie from advancing nationally in the GOP is being obese.  If he were even somewhat trimmed down, it would be a totally different story.

[arein0 1,110]

1 hour ago, LPTiger said:

It is going to take something dramatic to quickly change the minds of lots of people.    

If being indicted and convicted wasn't dramatic enough to change the minds of many, I'm afraid nothing will be big enough. 

[auburnatl1 6,301]

1 hour ago, LPTiger said:

Maybe in the debates one candidate will lay out an appealing case that Trump can't beat Biden and that he doesn't deserve a second chance.    Maybe another candidate will lay out a compelling case that he is unfit.   I hear what Titan is saying about not voting for Trump, and it would be great if we could somehow convince 30,000,000 others to do the same. But none of us have the ability to impact 30,000,000 people.   It is going to take something dramatic to quickly change the minds of lots of people.    

Trumps math works for the nomination as long as there’s multiple opposing candidates. Same for Bernie 3 years ago. Bernie lost to Biden when Obama convinced/ bullied the other candidates to bow out before Super Tuesday and it became just a 1 vs 1 race. Trumps base is similar to Bernie’s - extreme, smaller, but vote like crazy. Imo For trump to lose, all other candidates but one will have to bail early in the primaries so the anti trump sentiment can coalesce.