He just will not change

[AUFAN78 4,162]

31 minutes ago, AU9377 said:

The assumption you are making is that the Republican U.S. Attorney, David Weiss, who Bill Barr assigned the investigation to and was allowed to complete the investigation, intentionally slow walked his investigation and did not spend those 5 years doing an extensive review of the facts before charging HB.

No assumption necessary as we have congressional testimony from distinguished career agents/supervisors.

https://oversight.house.gov/release/hearing-wrap-up-irs-whistleblowers-expose-how-bidens-were-treated-differently/

[AUFAN78 4,162]

40 minutes ago, AU9377 said:

The context makes all the difference in the world.  You know that. 

To whom? And wouldn't that depend on certain parameters?

[TexasTiger 14,526]

33 minutes ago, AUFAN78 said:

Ah, the whataboutism master.

Thank you fidy. I mean Tex. 

You’re the one acting like any business connection to China means corruption, I’m not. 

[AUFAN78 4,162]

7 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

You’re the one acting like any business connection to China means corruption, I’m not. 

By all means Mr. Sensitive, show me where I stated that. 

I submitted an article detailing shady business dealings and evidence contradictory to Biden's previous statements. Quite the slow drip, but I'd guess more to come. Oh and shady dealings obviously weren't just with China. 

[LPTiger 5,533]

1 hour ago, AU9377 said:

I get your point and the reply is fair.  I just don't believe that there is a connection between policy and criminal behavior to the extent that would change that trajectory.

I hear you.   It is so sad to hear parents who live in west Birmingham afraid to let their children play outside.   If gangs are the problem why can't they be stopped?   Are the gangs in Bham smarter than the police?   Are they better funded than the police?   I'm just not sure anyone downtown has the guts that it takes to make it end.   Instead, we spend 5 years of time and money hyping up and getting ready to have the "World Games" which as you might expect turned out to be a loss for the city and the vendors who paid to have their trucks at the events.  What it did bring was lots of trafficking of innocent women.   During the games, there were 37 arrests for human trafficking.  

[AuburnNTexas 7,357]

7 hours ago, AU9377 said:

The problem is an unwillingness by one side to find actual solutions to real world problems.  Can we even agree that a decrease in emissions and improving gas mileage are, in general, good things?  Can we agree that we have a gun violence problem in this country?  These type issues are not approached as being controversial political issues in many other countries with wealth and an educated population.  Some in the U.S. immediately call any restrictions on these issues as restrictions on freedom.

The truth is that people in Canada, Australia, Japan, Germany, France and the U.K, among others, are just as "free" as we are here in the U.S.  If everyone would do the right thing, there would  be no need for regulations or standards to govern by.  In a country of 380 million  people, we know that is not a possibility.  The market alone won't solve these issues.  Congress has shown an unwillingness to solve these issues.  Therefore, someone has to attempt something or we will languish in no man's land without leadership.

I agree we have issues we need to address and both sides are part of the problem but when you say these countries are as free as we are that is a false statement.  In Canada and UK just praying in front of an Abortion center is a crime.  They have weaponized free speech by saying it is hurtful.  Canada sends Pastor's to Jail on Covid violations.  In UK reading the bible out loud in public can be considered hate speech. In the UK people who have a spotless work record but say things like I believe marriage is between a man and women or I believe in life have been fired from government jobs because they are espousing hate speech. 

Here in the US conservative voices on many campuses are shut down. College campuses used to be the bastion of free speech.  The ACLU was one of the greatest supporters of Free speech. I remember when the ACLU led by a Jew brought a case to allow the Nazis to parade through a heavily Jewish neighborhood. They condemned what the Nazis stood for but they saw how the Nazis rose in Germany and would not allow conflicting views.  

it is sad but if you look at the Civil rights movement in the US.  Churches especially the Jewish and Catholics were some of the strongest supporters of Civil Rights as was free speech on college campuses. Yet the left wants to stop free Speech from these groups by claiming it is hate speech. The left at one time was one of the strongest supporters of free speech and yet they are the ones trying to pass laws saying hate speech can't be allowed and they get to decide what is hate speech. 

Sadly you are right we have become so polarized we can't work together to resolve critical issues. Violence in our country especially violent crime is increasing not only in cities but in rural areas where there is a high preponderance of poverty Meth labs in  country gangs in the city.  Not enough police is part of the problem, police who have not had enough training, lack of opportunities for the poor, poor schools.  

Sadly with AI and Robotics lack of opportunity is going to spread outside of those areas in next 10 years most fast food restaurants will be automated for most tasks, as will a lot of jobs in IT, we will see higher unemployment outside of inner city and rural areas.

Nobody in either party is really talking about the future. We are not updating school curriculum to meet the jobs of the future as we can't even teach kids to read in many school systems. We need to take a long hard look at schools be they Private, Public, or Hybrid.  Should schools be year round with no long summer break and increase number of days student actually attend. Should schools open earlier and stay open later, be open during vacation times in some format as a safe haven for children.   

It would not be cheap to make schools year round in addition to having to increase teacher pay, larger facility bills power, water, etc. In addition some type of staffing when school is open as a safe haven but no actual classes. Also should we get back to teaching skills like Carpentry, HVAC, Plumbing, Electrical as that is an area where there is a huge demand for employees.

Tax zones for areas like Inner City that Trump with bi-partisan support put in place but will end in either 2024 or 2025 I can't remember which year. 

I have not heard any concrete proposals on long range planning for a world that is changing so quickly with AI and Robotics. There is a potential worldwide with these changes that we will have a huge surplus of people with no way to make a living. How do we provide a soft landing and a true safety net or will we match the Dystopian Future we see in movies with world wide crime ridden ghetto's and the few wealthy in protected enclaves.  We need to be talking about this years ago but can't wait much longer or it will be to late.   

Edited August 7, 2023 by AuburnNTexas

[LPTiger 5,533]

20 minutes ago, AuburnNTexas said:

I agree we have issues we need to address and both sides are part of the problem but when you say these countries are as free as we are that is a false statement.  In Canada and UK just praying in front of an Abortion center is a crime.  They have weaponized free speech by saying it is hurtful.  Canada sends Pastor's to Jail on Covid violations.  In UK reading the bible out loud in public can be considered hate speech. In the UK people who have a spotless work record but say things like I believe marriage is between a man and women or I believe in life have been fired from government jobs because they are espousing hate speech. 

Here in the US conservative voices on many campuses are shut down. College campuses used to be the bastion of free speech.  The ACLU was one of the greatest supporters of Free speech. I remember when the ACLU led by a Jew brought a case to allow the Nazis to parade through a heavily Jewish neighborhood. They condemned what the Nazis stood for but they saw how the Nazis rose in Germany and would not allow conflicting views.  

it is sad but if you look at the Civil rights movement in the US.  Churches especially the Jewish and Catholics were some of the strongest supporters of Civil Rights as was free speech on college campuses. Yet the left wants to stop free Speech from these groups by claiming it is hate speech. The left at one time was one of the strongest supporters of free speech and yet they are the ones trying to pass laws saying hate speech can't be allowed and they get to decide what is hate speech. 

Sadly you are right we have become so polarized we can't work together to resolve critical issues. Violence in our country especially violent crime is increasing not only in cities but in rural areas where there is a high preponderance of poverty Meth labs in  country gangs in the city.  Not enough police is part of the problem, police who have not had enough training, lack of opportunities for the poor, poor schools.  

Sadly with AI and Robotics lack of opportunity is going to spread outside of those areas in next 10 years most fast food restaurants will be automated for most tasks, as will a lot of jobs in IT, we will see higher unemployment outside of inner city and rural areas.

Nobody in either party is really talking about the future. We are not updating school curriculum to meet the jobs of the future as we can't even teach kids to read in many school systems. We need to take a long hard look at schools be they Private, Public, or Hybrid.  Should schools be year round with no long summer break and increase number of days student actually attend. Should schools open earlier and stay open later, be open during vacation times in some format as a safe haven for children.   

It would not be cheap to make schools year round in addition to having to increase teacher pay, larger facility bills power, water, etc. In addition some type of staffing when school is open as a safe haven but no actual classes. Also should we get back to teaching skills like Carpentry, HVAC, Plumbing, Electrical as that is an area where there is a huge demand for employees.

Tax zones for areas like Inner City that Trump with bi-partisan support put in place but will end in either 2024 or 2025 I can't remember which year. 

I have not heard any concrete proposals on long range planning for a world that is changing so quickly with AI and Robotics. There is a potential worldwide with these changes that we will have a huge surplus of people with no way to make a living. How do we provide a soft landing and a true safety net or will we match the Dystopian Future we see in movies with world wide crime ridden ghetto's and the few wealthy in protected enclaves.  We need to be talking about this years ago but can't wait much longer or it will be to late.   

When you are ready to run for office please let me know.   I will happily contribute to your campaign fund.

[GoAU 1,696]

8 hours ago, AU9377 said:

The problem is an unwillingness by one side to find actual solutions to real world problems.  Can we even agree that a decrease in emissions and improving gas mileage are, in general, good things?  Can we agree that we have a gun violence problem in this country?  These type issues are not approached as being controversial political issues in many other countries with wealth and an educated population.  Some in the U.S. immediately call any restrictions on these issues as restrictions on freedom.

The truth is that people in Canada, Australia, Japan, Germany, France and the U.K, among others, are just as "free" as we are here in the U.S.  If everyone would do the right thing, there would  be no need for regulations or standards to govern by.  In a country of 380 million  people, we know that is not a possibility.  The market alone won't solve these issues.  Congress has shown an unwillingness to solve these issues.  Therefore, someone has to attempt something or we will languish in no man's land without leadership.

Decreases in emissions in general are a good thing.  We do have violence / crime problem (the guns don’t commit the crimes, people do, so we actually have a people problem). 
 

Your “the end justifies the means” approach is frightening and is inviting authoritarian regimes like Brandon’s.  
 

The issue isn’t in accepting that things like you mentioned above are problems, the issue is in how to solve them.  Removing rights as an approach to “make something happen” is garbage and just not acceptable. 
 

If the market alone isn’t able to make changes, that is why we have a legislative branch.  Deeming them inadequate doesn’t mean you go around the process and circumvent the Constitution.  
 

I also disagree that those other countries are just as “free” as we are.  Are they oppressive in the way China and North Korea are - of course not, but they aren’t as free.  
 

6 hours ago, auburnatl1 said:

I don’t see it as a moral issue. It’s a societal one.  Even back in the Wild West some towns/marshal’s didn’t allow guns in town, some did. I don’t have a problem with LA having that law and Dallas not. Each city or state should be allowed to chose - if someone doesn’t like the laws or culture, just switch towns.  It’s called the “United States” for a reason. Localization. Imo it’s what makes the whole red/blue thing work and whyI prefer local laws to federal laws when possible.

in many ways I agree with you, but Constitutional Rights are non negotiable.  Would we be OK with some states restricting basic freedoms of speech, voting, etc?  

[SLAG-91 1,625]

1 hour ago, AuburnNTexas said:

I agree we have issues we need to address and both sides are part of the problem but when you say these countries are as free as we are that is a false statement.  In Canada and UK just praying in front of an Abortion center is a crime.  They have weaponized free speech by saying it is hurtful.  Canada sends Pastor's to Jail on Covid violations.  In UK reading the bible out loud in public can be considered hate speech. In the UK people who have a spotless work record but say things like I believe marriage is between a man and women or I believe in life have been fired from government jobs because they are espousing hate speech. 

Here in the US conservative voices on many campuses are shut down. College campuses used to be the bastion of free speech.  The ACLU was one of the greatest supporters of Free speech. I remember when the ACLU led by a Jew brought a case to allow the Nazis to parade through a heavily Jewish neighborhood. They condemned what the Nazis stood for but they saw how the Nazis rose in Germany and would not allow conflicting views.  

it is sad but if you look at the Civil rights movement in the US.  Churches especially the Jewish and Catholics were some of the strongest supporters of Civil Rights as was free speech on college campuses. Yet the left wants to stop free Speech from these groups by claiming it is hate speech. The left at one time was one of the strongest supporters of free speech and yet they are the ones trying to pass laws saying hate speech can't be allowed and they get to decide what is hate speech. 

Sadly you are right we have become so polarized we can't work together to resolve critical issues. Violence in our country especially violent crime is increasing not only in cities but in rural areas where there is a high preponderance of poverty Meth labs in  country gangs in the city.  Not enough police is part of the problem, police who have not had enough training, lack of opportunities for the poor, poor schools.  

Sadly with AI and Robotics lack of opportunity is going to spread outside of those areas in next 10 years most fast food restaurants will be automated for most tasks, as will a lot of jobs in IT, we will see higher unemployment outside of inner city and rural areas.

Nobody in either party is really talking about the future. We are not updating school curriculum to meet the jobs of the future as we can't even teach kids to read in many school systems. We need to take a long hard look at schools be they Private, Public, or Hybrid.  Should schools be year round with no long summer break and increase number of days student actually attend. Should schools open earlier and stay open later, be open during vacation times in some format as a safe haven for children.   

It would not be cheap to make schools year round in addition to having to increase teacher pay, larger facility bills power, water, etc. In addition some type of staffing when school is open as a safe haven but no actual classes. Also should we get back to teaching skills like Carpentry, HVAC, Plumbing, Electrical as that is an area where there is a huge demand for employees.

Tax zones for areas like Inner City that Trump with bi-partisan support put in place but will end in either 2024 or 2025 I can't remember which year. 

I have not heard any concrete proposals on long range planning for a world that is changing so quickly with AI and Robotics. There is a potential worldwide with these changes that we will have a huge surplus of people with no way to make a living. How do we provide a soft landing and a true safety net or will we match the Dystopian Future we see in movies with world wide crime ridden ghetto's and the few wealthy in protected enclaves.  We need to be talking about this years ago but can't wait much longer or it will be to late.   

Hard to argue with much, if any, of this, and it's depressing as hell...the cynic in me thinks it may be too late to turn the tide, but there is a part of me that holds out hope that we as a country can figure it out.  These are problems that require intelligent people to figure them out in a way that is beneficial to as large a group as possible.  Those people pretty much do NOT currently take up residence in Washington, D.C.

I think I need to go for a walk now to try and clear my head.

[Gowebb11 10,038]

8 hours ago, AU9377 said:

The problem is an unwillingness by one side to find actual solutions to real world problems.

You are correct. However, in modern times America the money and power is in having the problem. Not providing the solution. A sad truth. 

[Gowebb11 10,038]

7 minutes ago, GoAU said:

but they aren’t as free.  

I guess it’s a matter of what you consider free. I was recently in Paris France and enjoyed watching a peaceful protest in the middle of the major shopping district with the cops letting it happen, just like here. We roamed freely at night and felt safe. We enjoy more gun rights but they enjoy less violent crime. We chose where to eat and when, and visited multiple places of worship of various denominations and religions. Same for our time in London. Ditto for other nations I’ve visited like Italy, the Netherlands, and Germany. All of those nations have their own share of problems but they don’t lack for USA like freedoms in my opinion. Many of those countries have had constitutional freedoms long before we became a nation. 

[auburnatl1 6,301]

4 minutes ago, Gowebb11 said:

I Many of those countries have had constitutional freedoms long before we became a nation. 

I understand your sentiment and those are free democratic countries. But I would suggest being a citizen of a country is a very different experience than visiting or being an expat. 

[GoAU 1,696]

1 hour ago, Gowebb11 said:

I guess it’s a matter of what you consider free. I was recently in Paris France and enjoyed watching a peaceful protest in the middle of the major shopping district with the cops letting it happen, just like here. We roamed freely at night and felt safe. We enjoy more gun rights but they enjoy less violent crime. We chose where to eat and when, and visited multiple places of worship of various denominations and religions. Same for our time in London. Ditto for other nations I’ve visited like Italy, the Netherlands, and Germany. All of those nations have their own share of problems but they don’t lack for USA like freedoms in my opinion. Many of those countries have had constitutional freedoms long before we became a nation. 

I’m not saying they don’t have any freedom, but it isn’t the same.  I also don’t see the need to try and make our country like Europe, if I wanted Europe I would go there.  
 

Also, to act as if they didn’t have tons of violent protests and rioting in Paris and all over France just a few short months ago is disingenuous.  In many of the countries mentioned above people were locked up during COVID for disagreeing, attending church, etc.  

Freedom is a broad term, and I am not implying they have none, but I wouldn’t trade our systems for theirs any day.  
 

 

[SaltyTiger 8,672]

6 hours ago, homersapien said:

How large was that LAPD budget again?  And what does the term "defund" literally mean?

You are an ignorant cultist parroting MAGA talking points fed to you by lying media sources.

“Re-image” according to Kamala. Hasn’t worked to well has it. Take a drive through New Orleans at night Brother Homer. 

Seems the term “cultist Maga” is anyone disagreeing with or Fiddy.
 

 

[TexasTiger 14,526]

53 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

“Re-image” according to Kamala. Hasn’t worked to well has it. Take a drive through New Orleans at night Brother Homer. 

Seems the term “cultist Maga” is anyone disagreeing with or Fiddy.
 

 

Most police officers I know say they spend too much time doing stuff law enforcement officers aren’t necessary to do. If reimagining was similar to how such duties are divided in many of countries officers would have more time addressing actual crime.

BTW, crime is up in rural America where Dems are scarce:

https://www.google.com/amp/story/s/www.wsj.com/story/murder-rates-soar-in-rural-america-bb431022

[AuburnNTexas 7,357]

5 hours ago, LPTiger said:

When you are ready to run for office please let me know.   I will happily contribute to your campaign fund.

To old to run snd not enough money. Lol

[AU9377 6,117]

53 minutes ago, GoAU said:

I also disagree that those other countries are just as “free” as we are.  Are they oppressive in the way China and North Korea are - of course not, but they aren’t as free.  

What is being free? 

That must include a quality of life that affords the citizen of that country the ability to live and prosper, a sense of community, the protection of civil liberties and individual rights.  To be free, there must be an independent system of justice that protects the individual from undue government prosecution.  Every country I listed and many more provide all those things.  Many of them have justice systems that developed much like our own, from English common law. 

Being free can't simply mean the right to disregard any sense of community responsibility for the sake of stubborn adherence to a way of doing things that may or may not still work best.

I lived in Switzerland and Sweden for short periods of time.  People start businesses every day in those countries, they get married, divorced, go to church, go to pubs, raise children, protest, run for city council, join a political party etc etc etc ...... On average their life spans are longer and they never have to stress over how to pay for basic health care services. 

My point is not that their systems of govt are superior to ours, but simply that they have free elections and self determination on par with what we have here in the States. 

[SaltyTiger 8,672]

10 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

Most police officers I know say they spend too much time doing stuff law enforcement officers aren’t necessary to do. If reimagining was similar to how such duties are divided in many of countries officers would have more time addressing actual crime.

BTW, crime is up in rural America where Dems are scarce:

https://www.google.com/amp/story/s/www.wsj.com/story/murder-rates-soar-in-rural-america-bb431022

I understand that some reform is needed and officers would welcome it. I also believe some activist usethe term “defund” as disband.  

Yes, murder rates and crime are up.
 

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/myths-and-realities-understanding-recent-trends-violent-crime

Despite politicized claims that this rise was the result of criminal justice reform in liberal-leaning jurisdictions, murders rose roughly equally in cities run by Republicans and cities run by Democrats. So-called red states actually saw some of the highest murder rates of all. This data makes it difficult to pin recent trends on local policy shifts and reveals the central flaw in arguments that seek to politicize a problem as complex as crime. Instead, the evidence points to broad national causes driving rising crime.

 

 

 

[TexasTiger 14,526]

30 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

I understand that some reform is needed and officers would welcome it. I also believe some activist usethe term “defund” as disband.  

Yes, murder rates and crime are up.
 

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/myths-and-realities-understanding-recent-trends-violent-crime

Despite politicized claims that this rise was the result of criminal justice reform in liberal-leaning jurisdictions, murders rose roughly equally in cities run by Republicans and cities run by Democrats. So-called red states actually saw some of the highest murder rates of all. This data makes it difficult to pin recent trends on local policy shifts and reveals the central flaw in arguments that seek to politicize a problem as complex as crime. Instead, the evidence points to broad national causes driving rising crime.

 

 

 

Defund is a stupid term for proponents to use, unless they mean disband, but that’s a tiny percentage of folks. If you have to spend time explaining you mean something other than what you’re saying, you’ve already lost. The Defund folks saddled Democrats with a huge political albatross that didn’t reflect where most are. Some city councils felt pressure to respond to activists in the wake of George Floyd’s death, but those have largely continued or raised funding levels since.

Reform is needed. Good police officers— and I’m convinced most are good in most areas of the country— would benefit from reform. This is where our decentralization slows improvement. Funding varies widely, standards vary widely and bad cops just move to another jurisdiction.

[CoffeeTiger 5,969]

17 hours ago, AuburnNTexas said:

I agree we have issues we need to address and both sides are part of the problem but when you say these countries are as free as we are that is a false statement.  In Canada and UK just praying in front of an Abortion center is a crime.  They have weaponized free speech by saying it is hurtful.  Canada sends Pastor's to Jail on Covid violations.  In UK reading the bible out loud in public can be considered hate speech. In the UK people who have a spotless work record but say things like I believe marriage is between a man and women or I believe in life have been fired from government jobs because they are espousing hate speech. 

 

I think you're exaggerating here. 

From what I can find the one story about a person arrested for quoting the bible in the UK had their charges dropped in court, and in these 2 cases: 

https://www.christianpost.com/news/british-women-fired-for-saying-men-cant-become-women-wins-appeal.html

https://www2.cbn.com/news/world/uk-christian-politician-wins-payout-after-being-fired-her-biblical-beliefs-marriage

Both won their UK court cases when they got fired for voicing their Christian/anti-lgbtq beliefs. 

 

[AuburnNTexas 7,357]

43 minutes ago, CoffeeTiger said:

I think you're exaggerating here. 

From what I can find the one story about a person arrested for quoting the bible in the UK had their charges dropped in court, and in these 2 cases: 

https://www.christianpost.com/news/british-women-fired-for-saying-men-cant-become-women-wins-appeal.html

https://www2.cbn.com/news/world/uk-christian-politician-wins-payout-after-being-fired-her-biblical-beliefs-marriage

Both won their UK court cases when they got fired for voicing their Christian/anti-lgbtq beliefs. 

 

Just recently in UK

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2023/aug/4/man-charged-silently-praying-near-abortion-clinic-/

You are correct they won their cases but at what expense both financially, time fighting, and emotionally.  Then despite these people winning the UK authorities continue to arrest people for the same thing. The article above just occurred. 

I notice you didn't say anything about the Canadian Pastor and now his son being arrested.  

 

 

[TexasTiger 14,526]

15 minutes ago, AuburnNTexas said:

Just recently in UK

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2023/aug/4/man-charged-silently-praying-near-abortion-clinic-/

You are correct they won their cases but at what expense both financially, time fighting, and emotionally.  Then despite these people winning the UK authorities continue to arrest people for the same thing. The article above just occurred. 

I notice you didn't say anything about the Canadian Pastor and now his son being arrested.  

 

 

There have been some absurd overreaches in the UK, but the folks are winning their cases and establishing precedent going forward.

[CoffeeTiger 5,969]

18 minutes ago, AuburnNTexas said:

Just recently in UK

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2023/aug/4/man-charged-silently-praying-near-abortion-clinic-/

You are correct they won their cases but at what expense both financially, time fighting, and emotionally.  Then despite these people winning the UK authorities continue to arrest people for the same thing. The article above just occurred. 

 

yeah, you can't protest or hang out outside of abortion clinics in most European countries because they see the type of harassment and protest that women and workers who visit American abortion clinics have to regularly deal with.  The UK is determining that women have a right to address their healthcare needs without being shamed, yelled at, or accosted by people outside the facility. 

I full approve. 

You said above that people in the UK can be fired/punished for voicing their Christian beliefs, but the courts ruling in their favor seem to indicate that in the UK you do in fact have freedom to express your religious beliefs in most cases

About the only extra freedom that the US offers is that in America you can be especially nasty and hateful in your speech and rhetoric. 

 

 

 

 

18 minutes ago, AuburnNTexas said:

I notice you didn't say anything about the Canadian Pastor and now his son being arrested.  

 

 

I'm not familiar with that case and when i looked it up, the main story that popped seemed to be of this pastor having a large multitude of run-ins with authorities over the covid restrictions, going to those trucker rallies, etc and I don't have the time to dig into all that mess to really form an opinion. 

Edited August 8, 2023 by CoffeeTiger

[AuburnNTexas 7,357]

18 minutes ago, CoffeeTiger said:

 

yeah, you can't protest or hang out outside of abortion clinics in most European countries because they see the type of harassment and protest that women and workers who visit American abortion clinics have to regularly deal with.  The UK is determining that women have a right to address their healthcare needs without being shamed, yelled at, or accosted by people outside the facility. 

I full approve. 

You said above that people in the UK can be fired/punished for voicing their Christian beliefs, but the courts ruling in their favor seem to indicate that in the UK you do in fact have freedom to express your religious beliefs in most cases

About the only extra freedom that the US offers is that in America you can be especially nasty and hateful in your speech and rhetoric. 

 

 

 

 

I'm not familiar with that case and when i looked it up, the main story that popped seemed to be of this pastor having a large multitude of run-ins with authorities over the covid restrictions, going to those trucker rallies, etc and I don't have the time to dig into all that mess to really form an opinion. 

Like most people on both sides of the abortion article you frame it to make your side look like the good guys. Sadly the same thing on my side,  You say it is illegal in Europe to wait outside and scream and yell at the poor women going inside.  I have no problem with that if that was as far as the law went. But it is also illegal to stand outside and silently pray. 

I have personally done that and we have had women come up to us and tell us they didn't want an abortion but the boyfriend, or friend, or father insisted on it. We have given them documentation on other options some will take the other options and come back later and thank us others will go in. I personally believe the Fetus is a living human and has the right to life but I don't condemn those who go in as I realize they had to make a tough decision. Many Pro-abortion people want to close Life clinics where free pre-natal care is given and help with housing, food, money is given along with options like adoptions.  They say it is a woman's right to choose but they don't want the women to see other options.  How can you choose when you don't know about other options.

I realize not all the Pro-life people are like me some are zealots who condemn the women without trying to understand them some who even attack Abortion clinics. Just like there are abortion activists that fire bomb churches and life clinics. Neither side should be judged by the extremists. 

 

[GoAU 1,696]

15 hours ago, AU9377 said:

What is being free? 

That must include a quality of life that affords the citizen of that country the ability to live and prosper, a sense of community, the protection of civil liberties and individual rights.  To be free, there must be an independent system of justice that protects the individual from undue government prosecution.  Every country I listed and many more provide all those things.  Many of them have justice systems that developed much like our own, from English common law. 

Being free can't simply mean the right to disregard any sense of community responsibility for the sake of stubborn adherence to a way of doing things that may or may not still work best.

I lived in Switzerland and Sweden for short periods of time.  People start businesses every day in those countries, they get married, divorced, go to church, go to pubs, raise children, protest, run for city council, join a political party etc etc etc ...... On average their life spans are longer and they never have to stress over how to pay for basic health care services. 

My point is not that their systems of govt are superior to ours, but simply that they have free elections and self determination on par with what we have here in the States. 

I'm glad that have some freedom, but they do not have self determination on par with what we have.  There is not another country with more Constitional rights than we do.

2 hours ago, CoffeeTiger said:

 

yeah, you can't protest or hang out outside of abortion clinics in most European countries because they see the type of harassment and protest that women and workers who visit American abortion clinics have to regularly deal with.  The UK is determining that women have a right to address their healthcare needs without being shamed, yelled at, or accosted by people outside the facility. 

I full approve. 

You said above that people in the UK can be fired/punished for voicing their Christian beliefs, but the courts ruling in their favor seem to indicate that in the UK you do in fact have freedom to express your religious beliefs in most cases

About the only extra freedom that the US offers is that in America you can be especially nasty and hateful in your speech and rhetoric. 

 

 

 

 

I'm not familiar with that case and when i looked it up, the main story that popped seemed to be of this pastor having a large multitude of run-ins with authorities over the covid restrictions, going to those trucker rallies, etc and I don't have the time to dig into all that mess to really form an opinion. 

No protesting and yelling at people - I can understand the intent, but how do you delineate that with protesting or yelling at police during a rally, at company management during labor disputes, environmental, or political rallies?  You either have freedom of speech or you do not.   Obviously I am not talking about threats, which is a whole sperate issue.   We do not have to (and frequently don't) agree with the speech to understand the importance of freedom of speech.  For example, flag burning absolutely boils my blood - I find it reprehensible, disrespectful, and offensive to service members who paid the ultimate sacrafice for our nation, but I understand their right to do so.   In this case in particular, the person arrested PRAYED SILENTLY - didn't even address the people at the clinic.

 

The example about the Canadian pastor was just because he held OUTDOOR religious services.  He merely placed his faith first.   Whether he had the audacity to attend "trucker rallies" is irrelevant - unless of course we are bringing into play the retaliation of the "free" government of Canada.