Landmark SCOTUS Ruling On Affirmative Action

[Gowebb11 9,946]

5 hours ago, AU9377 said:

There are pages of small factors that add up to the result being a 5% minority enrollment at Auburn.  I do know that none of those factors is rooted in Auburn not wanting to increase minority enrollment.  The university very much wants to accomplish that.

I was at AU in the 80s and the % of African Americans was around 3%. The scariest part of that 5 number is that things are virtually unchanged in over 40 years.  In contrast, the company I work for doubled the numbers of minorities in upper management in 3 years with a targeted initiative to do so. No mandates, no quotas, just tweaked a few things in the interview process. 

[auburnatl1 6,208]

2 hours ago, homersapien said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilded_Age

Familiar but im not sure I get the parallels. That era was driven transformational change, not utopian policy. Post war recovery, massive industrialization (as was Europe), radical immigration/pop increase, and massive territorial growth.  

Ps it crushed greed? Ie The railroads were some most vicious “capitalists” to labor and immigrants in history.

ps2 the rise of AI could present another transformational opportunity for labor and equality. Or it could be The Terminator realized😇

Edited July 4, 2023 by auburnatl1

[AU9377 6,057]

1 hour ago, Gowebb11 said:

I was at AU in the 80s and the % of African Americans was around 3%. The scariest part of that 5 number is that things are virtually unchanged in over 40 years.  In contrast, the company I work for doubled the numbers of minorities in upper management in 3 years with a targeted initiative to do so. No mandates, no quotas, just tweaked a few things in the interview process. 

It is much easier to do that in a corporate environment.  I remember that 3% being the number in the early 90's as well.  The issue isn't unique to Auburn.  Univ of Georgia's student body is only 7% African American and their student body

[AU9377 6,057]

2 hours ago, cole256 said:

I mean what scholarship was it that she could've been offered if she was a minority

There are many different diversity, equity and inclusion scholarships.  That statement can be true and the person being told that have no idea exactly which scholarship would have been available.

I'm not opposed to those scholarships being directed to those efforts, so don't misunderstand what I am saying.  I just believe that Auburn gets it on the chin sometimes for a situation that the university has made a lot of efforts to improve.  I have seen several students placed on probation and eventually flunk out.  I have never seen a situation where that student's race was remotely involved in the decision.  I just don't think they are wired that way.

[Gowebb11 9,946]

13 minutes ago, AU9377 said:

It is much easier to do that in a corporate environment

How so?

[AU9377 6,057]

4 minutes ago, Gowebb11 said:

How so?

A corporation is paying the individual.  That person is often also rising in their career path.  A university is dependent on the pool of available candidates.  Those same candidates, especially the highly qualified candidates, will also have opportunities providing the same financial assistance at many other universities.

One way to increase the enrollment and it not be race based is to establish a system by which the top _______ percent of the graduating classes in drawn districts or in each county be admitted.  Similar to how Texas does their admissions now.

 

[Son of A Tiger 649]

3 hours ago, cole256 said:

I mean what scholarship was it that she could've been offered if she was a minority

An academic scholly according to the AU Admissions Office

[cole256 17,085]

3 hours ago, AU9377 said:

There are many different diversity, equity and inclusion scholarships.  That statement can be true and the person being told that have no idea exactly which scholarship would have been available.

I'm not opposed to those scholarships being directed to those efforts, so don't misunderstand what I am saying.  I just believe that Auburn gets it on the chin sometimes for a situation that the university has made a lot of efforts to improve.  I have seen several students placed on probation and eventually flunk out.  I have never seen a situation where that student's race was remotely involved in the decision.  I just don't think they are wired that way.

That's cool and I'm telling you as a former Auburn engineering student who was in NSBE there are an insane amount of talented African American students that are taking all kind of loans and busting their butts to be noticed to get ANY kind of scholy.

And I'm telling you I saw with my own eyes the black kid get denied when his guardian died and I watched my roommate get his suspension lifted because his mom and dad wrote a letter to the board. I'm not making it up, I was there. 

Now from his mouth there were plenty of guys in his frat that received the same grace, that's why he wasn't even nervous about it. According to him everybody get that first one......but my friend who was black didn't get that at all. That was actually one of the great lessons of life for me then. I was naive when I was young.....the world is a cold place.

[AU9377 6,057]

21 minutes ago, cole256 said:

That's cool and I'm telling you as a former Auburn engineering student who was in NSBE there are an insane amount of talented African American students that are taking all kind of loans and busting their butts to be noticed to get ANY kind of scholy.

And I'm telling you I saw with my own eyes the black kid get denied when his guardian died and I watched my roommate get his suspension lifted because his mom and dad wrote a letter to the board. I'm not making it up, I was there. 

Now from his mouth there were plenty of guys in his frat that received the same grace, that's why he wasn't even nervous about it. According to him everybody get that first one......but my friend who was black didn't get that at all. That was actually one of the great lessons of life for me then. I was naive when I was young.....the world is a cold place.

I'm not doubting your experience.  The fact is that we all have different experiences and we need to share them to better understand why someone agrees or disagrees with us about whatever topic is being discussed. 

I didn't come from wealth or poverty. I was blessed to have two parents that were deliberately selfless when it came to providing for their children.  I don't say that to cast shade on others, but instead to acknowledge my parents for their hard work.  To be honest, I didn't realize how little money we had until I got to Auburn.  Fortunately, tuition was much much cheaper in the 90s, but I still had to work every day to pay for many things that others took for granted. 

There are so many moving parts when it comes to the overall goals and needs of the communities and the nation where we live.  We have to promote a level playing field and simultaneously attempt to apply some degree of remedial action to correct the impact of bad decisions made decades or more in the past.  When that comes into conflict with an individual's ability to  succeed, all the good will in the world won't erase their resentment.  There is no easy answer.  We just have to keep trying.

[icanthearyou 4,468]

22 hours ago, auburnatl1 said:

The 40s, 50s and 60s grew from post war expansion, globalization, and an exploding birth rate. 

Respectfully, I haven’t been trained or indoctrinated. It’s way worse than that. I’ve run 2 large global consulting organizations and later started a PE firm that invests growth capital into many mid market tech companies. I am one of those capitalistic bastards.  You could either say Ive made money on the backs of others or created thousands of jobs and advanced many careers. And both would be true. 

We’re at an impasse and I promise I understand and am familiar with your point of view. It’s important and provides balance and injects limits to control greedy narcissists like me. 

The greatest economic expansion in history was partly attributed to post war conditions.  However, it was fueled and sustained by social programs for everything from housing, to education, to business development.  It was fueled by an abundance of opportunity that was BROADLY shared.

I appreciate your level of success.  I myself have started and run my own businesses.  However, that is not the level I am concerned with.  I am more concerned with the coordinated power of the real elite, the Wall St. capital class, the very small class of people who own more than 50% (and growing) of all of the assets in this country.

And again, broadening the economy serves all.  Narrowing the economy serves only a few at the expense of everyone else.  The facts, the data show us all we need to know.

[cole256 17,085]

11 hours ago, AU9377 said:

I'm not doubting your experience.  The fact is that we all have different experiences and we need to share them to better understand why someone agrees or disagrees with us about whatever topic is being discussed. 

I didn't come from wealth or poverty. I was blessed to have two parents that were deliberately selfless when it came to providing for their children.  I don't say that to cast shade on others, but instead to acknowledge my parents for their hard work.  To be honest, I didn't realize how little money we had until I got to Auburn.  Fortunately, tuition was much much cheaper in the 90s, but I still had to work every day to pay for many things that others took for granted. 

There are so many moving parts when it comes to the overall goals and needs of the communities and the nation where we live.  We have to promote a level playing field and simultaneously attempt to apply some degree of remedial action to correct the impact of bad decisions made decades or more in the past.  When that comes into conflict with an individual's ability to  succeed, all the good will in the world won't erase their resentment.  There is no easy answer.  We just have to keep trying.

I agree with all the things you say here. Fact of the matter is this board is filled with mostly the same demographics so many of the discussions about minorities on here come from mostly the same perspective and when they do get offered a different perspective they get angry or they dominate the convo sometimes with stuff that isn't even true. 

You could post a story about a black guy being killed or arrested unjustly and that thread would have minimal interaction. You post a story about a white dude being falsely called a racist or losing a job and that's going to be a major discussion.

The same with affirmative action, there's no thought as to why it was ever implemented in the first place or any discussion on the struggles that are still had today, but the thought of a white student not getting in or not getting a scholarship.....that perspective will dominate on here even if that is something that doesn't happen too often.

So I'm just voicing the other perspectives, especially the discussions where the thing being discussed is actually things that a majority of the board doesn't even deal with or have an affect on them so they question if the things even exist.

[auburnatl1 6,208]

52 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

The greatest economic expansion in history was partly attributed to post war conditions.  However, it was fueled and sustained by social programs for everything from housing, to education, to business development.  It was fueled by an abundance of opportunity that was BROADLY shared.

I appreciate your level of success.  I myself have started and run my own businesses.  However, that is not the level I am concerned with.  I am more concerned with the coordinated power of the real elite, the Wall St. capital class, the very small class of people who own more than 50% (and growing) of all of the assets in this country.

And again, broadening the economy serves all.  Narrowing the economy serves only a few at the expense of everyone else.  The facts, the data show us all we need to know.

Wall Street is a common target, people love Robin Hood, and everyone adores lions until they see one eating a gazelle. I agree (who wouldn’t) that broadening the economy and making it more inclusive is a good thing. It’ will continue to evolve, with the end game achieving “fair”. Just don’t under estimate the complexity, risk, and consequences of regulation and gov controls. Fix one problem/ unfairness, create 4 much bigger ones. Ps back to affirmative action - better and more equitable education is the better fix. But college is too late - there’s no saving a 910 sat score. The school social wars are a distraction - blow up and dramatically elevate the 3 Rs in elementary schools. Doesn’t cure everything, but you’re getting warmer.

That I’m willing to pay for.

[icanthearyou 4,468]

1 hour ago, auburnatl1 said:

Wall Street is a common target, people love Robin Hood, and everyone adores lions until they see one eating a gazelle. I agree (who wouldn’t) that broadening the economy and making it more inclusive is a good thing. It’ will continue to evolve, with the end game achieving “fair”. Just don’t under estimate the complexity, risk, and consequences of regulation and gov controls. Fix one problem/ unfairness, create 4 much bigger ones. Ps back to affirmative action - better and more equitable education is the better fix. But college is too late - there’s no saving a 910 sat score. The school social wars are a distraction - blow up and dramatically elevate the 3 Rs in elementary schools. Doesn’t cure everything, but you’re getting warmer.

That I’m willing to pay for.

No.  You seem to have little conception of real power, what a "free" market actually means.  You cannot discern between micro and macro functions.

Accelerating concentrations of wealth and power, all gains in productivity are going to a very limited group.

Stagnate wages for 50 years

Exploding government debt

Corporate power, coordinated by Wall St., has taken control of the government and, the country (do you disagree?).  I do not mind 3 classes.  I do mind an over class, with absolute power and, fully entrenched. 

Educational investment without societal investment will not work.  We have to get wages up, particularly at the bottom.  Reducing inequality is the way forward IF,,, we want a more peaceful, prosperous society.  Inequality threatens democracy and capitalism.  Historically, there is no argument.  We will all benefit from broadening the economy.  Whatever level of success you enjoy, it would be greater with a more equal economy.

 

 

Edited July 5, 2023 by icanthearyou

[auburnatl1 6,208]

1 hour ago, icanthearyou said:

No.  You seem to have little conception of real power, what a "free" market actually means.  You cannot discern between micro and macro functions.

Accelerating concentrations of wealth and power, all gains in productivity are going to a very limited group.

Stagnate wages for 50 years

Exploding government debt

Corporate power, coordinated by Wall St., has taken control of the government and, the country (do you disagree?).  I do not mind 3 classes.  I do mind an over class, with absolute power and, fully entrenched. 

Educational investment without societal investment will not work.  We have to get wages up, particularly at the bottom.  Reducing inequality is the way forward IF,,, we want a more peaceful, prosperous society.  Inequality threatens democracy and capitalism.  Historically, there is no argument.  We will all benefit from broadening the economy.  Whatever level of success you enjoy, it would be greater with a more equal economy.

 

 

Youre looking at the problem through one narrow lens - a conspiracy of the super elite to control and manipulate …. everything. Captains and the Kings stuff. I’m not negating corruption but there are other, bigger factors to why wages have flat lined. Again 1) offshoring destroyed 40% of middle class American jobs. I watched it at point blank range. Ie the rust belt  2) population growth slow down (baby boomers aging out). Good for the environment, bad for gdp and job creation. 3) the fed  - who has prioritized inflation control  over jobs and wage increases.  4) poor education is creating massive misery and an economic drain. The list goes on. The point being it’s not all because of a secret society of elite bad people.

You’re not wrong but I do think you’re obsessing on only 1 variable of a massive linear algebra make-our-economy-more-fair problem. There’s lots more to consider and resolve.

https://www.thecentersquare.com/michigan/article_e76e6e40-c48d-50b8-9fee-d177a7dfba82.html#:~:text=In 2021%2C in the middle,2022%2C growing by 0.4%.

Edited July 5, 2023 by auburnatl1

[icanthearyou 4,468]

2 hours ago, auburnatl1 said:

Youre looking at the problem through one narrow lens - a conspiracy of the super elite to control and manipulate …. everything. Captains and the Kings stuff. I’m not negating corruption but there are other, bigger factors to why wages have flat lined. Again 1) offshoring destroyed 40% of middle class American jobs. I watched it at point blank range. Ie the rust belt  2) population growth slow down (baby boomers aging out). Good for the environment, bad for gdp and job creation. 3) the fed  - who has prioritized inflation control  over jobs and wage increases.  4) poor education is creating massive misery and an economic drain. The list goes on. The point being it’s not all because of a secret society of elite bad people.

You’re not wrong but I do think you’re obsessing on only 1 variable of a massive linear algebra make-our-economy-more-fair problem. There’s lots more to consider and resolve.

https://www.thecentersquare.com/michigan/article_e76e6e40-c48d-50b8-9fee-d177a7dfba82.html#:~:text=In 2021%2C in the middle,2022%2C growing by 0.4%.

Well, who stood to gain from outsourcing?  Was it all about labor or, also about environmental regulations and, tax treatment? 

It is not a "secret society".  It is happening right in front of us.  Again, read the Powell memo.  When someone tells you their intentions and then, brings that in to reality, there is no longer a "conspiracy".  Taking control of the government is the key.  I ask you again,,, does the capital class control the government?  Is the government for sale?

I believe you are being disingenuous or, naive about the nature of real power.

[auburnatl1 6,208]

1 hour ago, icanthearyou said:

Well, who stood to gain from outsourcing? 

Shareholders and consumers (iPhone 14 would cost $2850 if built in the us).   

[icanthearyou 4,468]

9 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

Shareholders and consumers (iPhone 14 would cost $2850 if built in the us).   

And,,, Apple wouldn't have to stash $500,000,000,000 overseas.  Of course,,, they would have to pay taxes on it (maybe).

No matter.  The price of an Apple phone is more about branding, superior chip, superior customer service rather than, production costs.

You haven't answered any of my other questions but, I'll ask another.  Do you believe Apple represents the multinational corporate attitude that has no societal conscience, no moral conscience, only a profit motive?  Is that a sociopathic mindset?

[auburnatl1 6,208]

1 hour ago, icanthearyou said:

And,,, Apple wouldn't have to stash $500,000,000,000 overseas.  Of course,,, they would have to pay taxes on it (maybe).

No matter.  The price of an Apple phone is more about branding, superior chip, superior customer service rather than, production costs.

You haven't answered any of my other questions but, I'll ask another.  Do you believe Apple represents the multinational corporate attitude that has no societal conscience, no moral conscience, only a profit motive?  Is that a sociopathic mindset?

Any company must be registered structurally as either for profit or non profit. Very different goals and roles. Apple is for profit so….   I understand your point but the biggest socially conscious failure a ceo can do is have to layoff 20,000 employees  because they were competitively trounced by an overseas company who wasn’t worried about being socially conscious.

Societies have been trying to hybrid wealth of nations with das kapital  for over a hundred years.  It’s a work in progress. Keep fighting the good fight.

 

[icanthearyou 4,468]

18 hours ago, auburnatl1 said:

Any company must be registered structurally as either for profit or non profit. Very different goals and roles. Apple is for profit so….   I understand your point but the biggest socially conscious failure a ceo can do is have to layoff 20,000 employees  because they were competitively trounced by an overseas company who wasn’t worried about being socially conscious.

Societies have been trying to hybrid wealth of nations with das kapital  for over a hundred years.  It’s a work in progress. Keep fighting the good fight.

 

I think we agree (for the most part) where,,, companies are still a part of the industrial, production based economy.  However, most growth is occurring within the financialized economy.  And for that,,, you cannot rely on Adam Smith, you need to understand John Stuart Mill.

Even then, you have to look at the transition of a company like GE and, understand how the financialized economy will effectively change the motives of leadership.

Edited July 6, 2023 by icanthearyou

[TexasTiger 14,364]

Interesting:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/07/06/whos-okay-with-the-affirmative-action-decision-many-black-americans/

[Son of A Tiger 649]

Some want to expand the SCOTUS. Maybe we should also be allowed to purge it.

Ketanji Brown Jackson made 'mathematically absurd claim' on Black newborns: WSJ op-ed | Fox News

[arein0 1,106]

42 minutes ago, Son of A Tiger said:

Some want to expand the SCOTUS. Maybe we should also be allowed to purge it.

Ketanji Brown Jackson made 'mathematically absurd claim' on Black newborns: WSJ op-ed | Fox News

You're starting to sound like a liberal 😉

[SaltyTiger 8,600]

7 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

Interesting:

Very interesting. So most Americans including African Americans agree with the “ruling”. Good for forum talk. 
 

Enjoyed the exchange between ITCHY and ANat1. 

 

[TexasTiger 14,364]

1 hour ago, SaltyTiger said:

Very interesting. So most Americans including African Americans agree with the “ruling”. Good for forum talk. 
 

Enjoyed the exchange between ITCHY and ANat1. 

 

Well, it's not clear that "most African Americans" do, but in the context of this poll more did than didn't.

[AUFAN78 4,161]

I always enjoy these two professor's take on academia. Here is another excellent take on affirmative action..

https://glennloury.substack.com/p/affirmative-actions-parasitic-elitism