Merit vs. Diversity in Schools

[AUDub 11,974]

1 hour ago, Son of A Tiger said:

I can tell you for a fact that isn't true at Auburn. My daughter had a 4.0 at one of the best HS in Alabama and AU offered her nothing in the way of a scholarship. I talked to admissions and they said they had to give a certain % to minorities and it was already awarded so nothing left for merit alone. Get to know some retired officials (Provosts, Presidents, and Deans) and you will learn a lot about what goes on at AU in the academic world.

 

Auburn gives out practically nothing lol. 
 

My oldest is a senior. 4.45 GPA, 5th in her class. 33 ACT. Just getting admitted was a mess. 
 

She’s going to UAB though. Already been accepted to graduate school there. Full ride, honors classes and all that. On track to have a masters in immunology in 4 years. 

[icanthearyou 4,468]

I have a young relative who received a full ride to Auburn.  So much in fact, there was money left over.  This person is adopted and, originally from China.  Now, about to graduate medical school.

I noticed at graduation, every student receiving a graduate degree was from outside the United States.

 

[Son of A Tiger 649]

19 hours ago, AUDub said:

Auburn gives out practically nothing lol. 
 

My oldest is a senior. 4.45 GPA, 5th in her class. 33 ACT. Just getting admitted was a mess. 
 

She’s going to UAB though. Already been accepted to graduate school there. Full ride, honors classes and all that. On track to have a masters in immunology in 4 years. 

UAB offered my daughter $4000 too but I paid her way to go to Auburn. She did go to UAB for grad school and then to the Univ. of Colorado med school and is now a PA.

[AURex 2,262]

Auburn is pretty much legislated to provide access to education for as many high school graduates as possible. Look at minority Alabama enrollments at Bammer vs Auburn. Bammer sucks in a very large percentage of its student enrollment from out-of-state -- i.e., high paying out of state students. Auburn is required to absorb as many in-state students as possible.

Many of the Auburn applicants cannot afford even in-state tuition and fees. Even if they have high grades and sparkling letters of support. As a result, kids with good grades from privileged backgrounds and well-supported school districts might not receive scholarships that are targeted for minority and underprivileged kids.

Even with all the efforts by Auburn to recruit and support minority students, the reality is that less than 6% of Auburn students are black. The percentage of minority students (primarily Asian) is higher in STEM graduate programs, but if the highest scoring applicants for STEM graduate programs were admitted, there would not be a single white grad student in Chemistry, Physics, Biological Sciences, Engineering, etc.

I worked my way through Auburn without a scholarship. So did my (now) wife. Even though both of us scored in the very top of the ACT and had top grades in high school.

Just because you are white and have good grades does not assure a scholarship. And I am 100% okay with that. If we can pull some kids out of poverty, out of an environment of ignorance and give them an opportunity to build a better life for themselves and their families, I'm 100% okay with that.

 

[icanthearyou 4,468]

In the 1970s, college became more accessible to those who were historically excluded.  From 1970 to 2010 college enrollments increased by 300%+ in most areas of the country.

Primarily, women have taken advantage.  Women now slightly dominate college enrollment. 

Since 2010, college admissions have declined.  Perhaps the question is not about diversity and merit but rather, are we limiting opportunity and if so,,, why?

Are we attempting to maintain the integrity of certain degrees?  Are we attempting to control competition, the relative economic value of some degrees?

Are we looking at the value of education on it's own merits or, do we look at it strictly as a ROI. 

Who actually controls our public institutions of higher learning?  Taxpayers? Big donors? Politicians?  Experts in education?

Is higher education about the students or,,, is it about something else?

Are rising tuition costs a means of limiting enrollment, opportunity.

 

Edited January 9, 2023 by icanthearyou

[PUB78 1,413]

2 hours ago, icanthearyou said:

In the 1970s, college became more accessible to those who were historically excluded.  From 1970 to 2010 college enrollments increased by 300%+ in most areas of the country.

Primarily, women have taken advantage.  Women now slightly dominate college enrollment. 

Since 2010, college admissions have declined.  Perhaps the question is not about diversity and merit but rather, are we limiting opportunity and if so,,, why?

Are we attempting to maintain the integrity of certain degrees?  Are we attempting to control competition, the relative economic value of some degrees?

Are we looking at the value of education on it's own merits or, do we look at it strictly as a ROI. 

Who actually controls our public institutions of higher learning?  Taxpayers? Big donors? Politicians?  Experts in education?

Is higher education about the students or,,, is it about something else?

Are rising tuition costs a means of limiting enrollment, opportunity.

 

Are you quoting someone, or is this your opinion or manifesto?

[SaltyTiger 8,595]

4 hours ago, icanthearyou said:

In the 1970s, college became more accessible to those who were historically excluded.  From 1970 to 2010 college enrollments increased by 300%+ in most areas of the country.

Primarily, women have taken advantage.  Women now slightly dominate college enrollment. 

Since 2010, college admissions have declined.  Perhaps the question is not about diversity and merit but rather, are we limiting opportunity and if so,,, why?

Are we attempting to maintain the integrity of certain degrees?  Are we attempting to control competition, the relative economic value of some degrees?

Are we looking at the value of education on it's own merits or, do we look at it strictly as a ROI. 

Who actually controls our public institutions of higher learning?  Taxpayers? Big donors? Politicians?  Experts in education?

Is higher education about the students or,,, is it about something else?

Are rising tuition costs a means of limiting enrollment, opportunity.

 

Interesting….what are you trying to say ICHY?

[Didba 5,511]

On 1/7/2023 at 10:22 AM, GoAU said:

That is true, however how do you feel about things like Honors and Advanced classes?  My kids have always went to public schools, and most of the ones they have attended are getting rid of these classes out of fear of kids feeling “left out”.  This is ridiculous to me - teach the kids to the level they are best matched to.  
 

Believe it or not, I even got a letter from a school saying that they were having a pizza party for kids with perfect attendance (my did not, and therefore wouldn’t be attending) and in less than an hour the principal sent out an email apologizing to the parents that they wouldn’t be having this event to recognize perfect attendance because of some kids felling left out.  That’s so silly - raising snowflakes and kids that don’t feel like doing your best and going the extra mile will be rewarded.  

That’s a pretty good point.  But I feel like somewhere in there, after the kids wiith pull are taken care of, there may be some seats for “regular people” like us.  

This is a very true statement.  

I agree with this 100%. I was in all AP course besides math (hahah Lawyer no number good) and even then there was many times when I was very bored in AP English, or History. I cannot imagine how agonizing normal classes would have been for me.

[PUB78 1,413]

Hey Didba! Here are some books you can read while waiting on your bar exam results.

[Didba 5,511]

On 1/7/2023 at 11:56 AM, Son of A Tiger said:

I can tell you for a fact that isn't true at Auburn. My daughter had a 4.0 at one of the best HS in Alabama and AU offered her nothing in the way of a scholarship. I talked to admissions and they said they had to give a certain % to minorities and it was already awarded so nothing left for merit alone. Get to know some retired officials (Provosts, Presidents, and Deans) and you will learn a lot about what goes on at AU in the academic world.

 

This isn't responsive in any way to my post. Further, I was speaking strictly about admissions not scholarship $$$.

[Didba 5,511]

19 hours ago, AURex said:

Auburn is pretty much legislated to provide access to education for as many high school graduates as possible. Look at minority Alabama enrollments at Bammer vs Auburn. Bammer sucks in a very large percentage of its student enrollment from out-of-state -- i.e., high paying out of state students. Auburn is required to absorb as many in-state students as possible.

Many of the Auburn applicants cannot afford even in-state tuition and fees. Even if they have high grades and sparkling letters of support. As a result, kids with good grades from privileged backgrounds and well-supported school districts might not receive scholarships that are targeted for minority and underprivileged kids.

Even with all the efforts by Auburn to recruit and support minority students, the reality is that less than 6% of Auburn students are black. The percentage of minority students (primarily Asian) is higher in STEM graduate programs, but if the highest scoring applicants for STEM graduate programs were admitted, there would not be a single white grad student in Chemistry, Physics, Biological Sciences, Engineering, etc.

I worked my way through Auburn without a scholarship. So did my (now) wife. Even though both of us scored in the very top of the ACT and had top grades in high school.

Just because you are white and have good grades does not assure a scholarship. And I am 100% okay with that. If we can pull some kids out of poverty, out of an environment of ignorance and give them an opportunity to build a better life for themselves and their families, I'm 100% okay with that.

 

Race used in the admissions process = unconstitutional.

Race used in the scholarship distribution process = constitutional.
It is that simple.

[Didba 5,511]

36 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

Interesting….what are you trying to say ICHY?

I take it, he is implying that higher education and its bloated exponential tuition needs to be reformed in a major way. A paradigm shift if you will.

[Didba 5,511]

5 minutes ago, PUB78 said:

Hey Didba! Here are some books you can read while waiting on your bar exam results.

No need. I passed the bar in October. Thanks for the suggestions though, I'll pass them onto my relatives in Alabama.

[PUB78 1,413]

27 minutes ago, Didba said:

No need. I passed the bar in October. Thanks for the suggestions though, I'll pass them onto my relatives in Alabama.

Congratulations!🍾🎈🎉 

[SaltyTiger 8,595]

1 hour ago, Didba said:

I take it, he is implying that higher education and its bloated exponential tuition needs to be reformed in a major way. A paradigm shift if you will.

Hoping ICHY would answer. I agree tuition reform has been needed.
 

Amazed at the money our institutions have spent during my working life in building inefficient yet beautiful structures. 

[SaltyTiger 8,595]

1 hour ago, Didba said:

I was in all AP course besides math (hahah Lawyer no number good)

Until billing time.

[TitanTiger 21,338]

On 1/7/2023 at 1:08 PM, AUDub said:

Auburn gives out practically nothing lol. 
 

My oldest is a senior. 4.45 GPA, 5th in her class. 33 ACT. Just getting admitted was a mess. 
 

She’s going to UAB though. Already been accepted to graduate school there. Full ride, honors classes and all that. On track to have a masters in immunology in 4 years. 

I can attest to this as well.  Daughter went to the top high school in Alabama (and top 20 in the country).  Similar scores to your child (little lower on the GPA and a 32 on the ACT).  She got a full tuition scholarship to UAB and admission to the honors college and Auburn offered about 70% of that.  Guess where she ended up?

Auburn is stingy while Alabama passes out money like PEZ.

[TitanTiger 21,338]

20 hours ago, icanthearyou said:

Since 2010, college admissions have declined.  Perhaps the question is not about diversity and merit but rather, are we limiting opportunity and if so,,, why?

Are we attempting to maintain the integrity of certain degrees?  Are we attempting to control competition, the relative economic value of some degrees?

Are we looking at the value of education on it's own merits or, do we look at it strictly as a ROI. 

Who actually controls our public institutions of higher learning?  Taxpayers? Big donors? Politicians?  Experts in education?

Is higher education about the students or,,, is it about something else?

Are rising tuition costs a means of limiting enrollment, opportunity.

I think one factor to consider is that rising tuition costs are causing many to question the ROI of a college degree in the first place.

[AUDub 11,974]

26 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Auburn is stingy while Alabama passes out money like PEZ.

Our second oldest, a sophomore, is considering Alabama.

I promised not to disown her lol. 

[GoAU 1,696]

16 hours ago, Didba said:

Race used in the admissions process = unconstitutional.

Race used in the scholarship distribution process = constitutional.
It is that simple.

That is a true statement, but should it be?   

[Didba 5,511]

16 hours ago, SaltyTiger said:

Until billing time.

Hahah, so true

[Didba 5,511]

1 hour ago, GoAU said:

That is a true statement, but should it be?   

Probably. The real answer is just tuition to be reasonable so scholarships aren't as necessary except for in extreme poverty stricken homes

[icanthearyou 4,468]

3 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

I think one factor to consider is that rising tuition costs are causing many to question the ROI of a college degree in the first place.

Will that reduce education to little more than vocational training? 

 

[PUB78 1,413]

4 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

I can attest to this as well.  Daughter went to the top high school in Alabama (and top 20 in the country).  Similar scores to your child (little lower on the GPA and a 32 on the ACT).  She got a full tuition scholarship to UAB and admission to the honors college and Auburn offered about 70% of that.  Guess where she ended up?

Auburn is stingy while Alabama passes out money like PEZ.

She went to Mountain Brook High School?

Yes indeed Auburn is hard to get scholarship $ from. My eldest decided to go to Troy because they offered her a small scholarship which saved me $ since I was paying for it all anyway.

[TitanTiger 21,338]

2 hours ago, icanthearyou said:

Will that reduce education to little more than vocational training? 

Perhaps.  Getting a well rounded education that will also help you to get better paying and more fulfilling work is fine when you can still afford to pay for school by working part time through college or something, or you just take on a few thousand in debt.  But when you're still paying the equivalent of a mortgage payment on school loans every month into your late 30s/early 40s for a job that pays you $45k, it makes you question whether it was worth it.