Pro-death Republicans

[homersapien 12,275]

2 hours ago, jj3jordan said:

Nope. That’s why they have to pull the plug to achieve death. People live for years with no brain function if their heart is beating and a respirator is operating. Only when the doctor listens for a heartbeat and finds none can the patient be declared dead.  Time recorded and certificate issued. 

So, even though there was no brain activity, you are saying I murdered my father by allowing the hospital to "pull the plug"?  People who have no brain function are dead, by definition.

 

Sorry, but you are just wrong:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3372912/

An individual who has sustained either (1) irreversible cessation of circulatory and respiratory functions, (which obviously leads to brain death)  or (2) irreversible cessation of all functions of the entire brain, including the brain stem, is dead. A determination of death must be made in accordance with accepted medical standards.

There is only one kind of death — when one is dead, one is dead — but death can be determined in the two different ways described in the law. A brain dead individual who is warm and pink with heart beating and lungs ventilating is just as dead, legally, as an individual whose body has turned cold after the heart has permanently stopped beating.

 

 

Bottom line, if your heart stops beating, you are dead. (But only because when your heart stops, your brain dies.)

The proof that a stopped heart does not necessarily mean you are dead is obvious when you consider life can be maintained with a mechanical or a different heart.

In the example you state above, the patient  - actually "body" who is maintained with a heartbeat is dead if their brain is dead, regardless of a still beating heart. 

(The recording of "time of death" is mere protocol. The patient is already dead, which is why pulling the plug is appropriate.)

That is the science of the matter.

The idea that the heart is the center of "life" is an archaic  belief.  To believe it is scientifically - and I would argue intuitively - ignorant.  It's no different than saying one's "soul" resides in the heart (which people also once believed).

Now having said that, you are free to believe it because - in this country - you are free to believe whatever nonsense you choose to.  (Just like you are free to believe a zygote is a "baby".)

But don't try to convince me that reality, as revealed by science - or intuition for that matter - backs you up. 

It doesn't.

Edited October 6, 2022 by homersapien

[jj3jordan 2,172]

37 minutes ago, homersapien said:

So, even though there was no brain activity, you are saying I murdered my father by allowing the hospital to "pull the plug"?  People who have no brain function are dead, by definition.

 

Sorry, but you are just wrong:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3372912/

An individual who has sustained either (1) irreversible cessation of circulatory and respiratory functions, (which obviously leads to brain death)  or (2) irreversible cessation of all functions of the entire brain, including the brain stem, is dead. A determination of death must be made in accordance with accepted medical standards.

There is only one kind of death — when one is dead, one is dead — but death can be determined in the two different ways described in the law. A brain dead individual who is warm and pink with heart beating and lungs ventilating is just as dead, legally, as an individual whose body has turned cold after the heart has permanently stopped beating.

 

 

Bottom line, if your heart stops beating, you are dead. (But only because when your heart stops, your brain dies.)

The proof that a stopped heart does not necessarily mean you are dead is obvious when you consider life can be maintained with a mechanical or a different heart.

In the example you state above, the patient  - actually "body" who is maintained with a heartbeat is dead if their brain is dead, regardless of a still beating heart. 

(The recording of "time of death" is mere protocol. The patient is already dead, which is why pulling the plug is appropriate.)

That is the science of the matter.

The idea that the heart is the center of "life" is an archaic  belief.  To believe it is scientifically - and I would argue intuitively - ignorant.  It's no different than saying one's "soul" resides in the heart (which people also once believed).

Now having said that, you are free to believe it because - in this country - you are free to believe whatever nonsense you choose to.  (Just like you are free to believe a zygote is a "baby".)

But don't try to convince me that reality, as revealed by science - or intuition for that matter - backs you up. 

It doesn't.

Nobody intimated that you murdered your father.  Nobody said pulling the plug was inappropriate.

What do you do with the “body”, dead and certified, that has a beating heart?  Funeral home won’t take him, crematorium won’t burn him, family won’t roll him out to the car.  You pull the plug, wait for his heart to stop, then you proceed with his arrangements.  Do you read the will and divest the estate while he still has a heartbeat? 

[pensacolatiger 313]

3 hours ago, homersapien said:

Just like Fifty said, when the brain is dead.

Of course, the brain dies pretty soon after the heart stops, so the heart stopping long enough kills the brain. 

But a stopped heart per se' does not indicate death.  Examples of a stopped heart being re-started are common.  But if too much time lapses, the person is "brain dead" - i.e:  dead - even if the heart is re-started.

You know squat about medicine or science in general.  So keep your ******* religion to yourself and quit trying to force it on others.

So you can’t “nut up”, figures

[CoffeeTiger 5,929]

21 minutes ago, jj3jordan said:

Nobody intimated that you murdered your father.  Nobody said pulling the plug was inappropriate.

What do you do with the “body”, dead and certified, that has a beating heart?  Funeral home won’t take him, crematorium won’t burn him, family won’t roll him out to the car.  You pull the plug, wait for his heart to stop, then you proceed with his arrangements.  Do you read the will and divest the estate while he still has a heartbeat? 

Because the body is still under medical care at that point. 

You absolutely can be considered legally and medically dead while still having a beating heart on a respirator if you are completely brain dead. 

 

A beating heart isn't 'making' you alive if you're brain dead, it's just keeping your physical body from decaying. 

They'll sometimes keep dead people on a vent to save the organs for donation/harvesting. 

 

[jj3jordan 2,172]

2 minutes ago, CoffeeTiger said:

Because the body is still under medical care at that point. 

You absolutely can be considered legally and medically dead while still having a beating heart on a respirator if you are completely brain dead. 

 

A beating heart isn't 'making' you alive if you're brain dead, it's just keeping your physical body from decaying. 

They'll sometimes keep dead people on a vent to save the organs for donation/harvesting. 

 

So you leave them at the hospital and let them deal with it?
 

[CoffeeTiger 5,929]

Just now, jj3jordan said:

So you leave them at the hospital and let them deal with it?
 

You can. 

If a hospital has a brain dead patent on life support and no family to claim it or the family doesn't want the body then then they'll remove life support and throw the body in the morgue for the State to take care of. 

A doctor will always declare a brain dead body as clinically dead. At that point the hospital has no obligation or need to keep the body on life support beyond organ harvesting. 

 

[pensacolatiger 313]

9 minutes ago, jj3jordan said:

So you leave them at the hospital and let them deal with it?
 

I don’t know why you waste your breath.  These clowns have no idea that brain activity continues well after many people are declared dead.  They just search high and low for some reason to justify their blood lust

[homersapien 12,275]

37 minutes ago, pensacolatiger said:

So you can’t “nut up”, figures

Nice response!  Hard to respond to.

(It also  illustrates why arguing with drunks and crazy people is futile.)

Edited October 6, 2022 by homersapien

[icanthearyou 4,468]

Attempting to reduce the meaning of humanity/human being to the microbiological level is merely a ploy. 

We should have more concern for those who actually have consciousness, thoughts, feelings.  That is more revealing in regards to a true sense of humanity.

 

[homersapien 12,275]

51 minutes ago, jj3jordan said:

Nobody intimated that you murdered your father.  Nobody said pulling the plug was inappropriate.

 

Again, that was a perfectly logical conclusion:

If a beating heart is the measure of life, then pulling the plug on a respirator - thus causing the heart to stop - is killing/murdering the patient.

If you don't accept that, then your premise is wrong.

(Of course the other possibility is you really don't understand rules of logic, which is certainly possible.) 

 

 

[homersapien 12,275]

15 minutes ago, pensacolatiger said:

I don’t know why you waste your breath.  These clowns have no idea that brain activity continues well after many people are declared dead.  They just search high and low for some reason to justify their blood lust

Brain activity might continue after someone is "declared" dead, but that means they aren't yet (legally) dead and the declaration was in error.

More to the point, there is no brain activity after someone is actually dead.  (I can't believe this needs to be explained to you.)

Obviously, you need to be a little more precise in your writing.  If that's possible.

[homersapien 12,275]

2 hours ago, jj3jordan said:

Nobody intimated that you murdered your father.  Nobody said pulling the plug was inappropriate.

What do you do with the “body”, dead and certified, that has a beating heart?  Funeral home won’t take him, crematorium won’t burn him, family won’t roll him out to the car.  You pull the plug, wait for his heart to stop, then you proceed with his arrangements.  Do you read the will and divest the estate while he still has a heartbeat? 

WTF????

[pensacolatiger 313]

1 hour ago, icanthearyou said:

Attempting to reduce the meaning of humanity/human being to the microbiological level is merely a ploy. 

We should have more concern for those who actually have consciousness, thoughts, feelings.  That is more revealing in regards to a true sense of humanity.

 

Correct sir - a ploy indeed.  Regardless of someone’s position on the timing of “start of life”, they know they are still arguing for the right to commit murder.  

[aubiefifty 18,398]

5 hours ago, jj3jordan said:

Nope. That’s why they have to pull the plug to achieve death. People live for years with no brain function if their heart is beating and a respirator is operating. Only when the doctor listens for a heartbeat and finds none can the patient be declared dead.  Time recorded and certificate issued. 

jj i just googled the stuff. if a man has no brain waves and they are keeping him alive by ventilation he is considered dead. even with a heartbeat. i have also seen it in real life when a doc was addressing a family and said this person was dead even tho he still had a heart beat. you are splitting hairs.

[Leftfield 3,412]

35 minutes ago, pensacolatiger said:

Regardless of someone’s position on the timing of “start of life”, they know they are still arguing for the right to commit murder.  

Please verify - You're saying that if a person believes that life hasn't started yet, they still know they're arguing to commit murder?

[jj3jordan 2,172]

23 minutes ago, aubiefifty said:

jj i just googled the stuff. if a man has no brain waves and they are keeping him alive by ventilation he is considered dead. even with a heartbeat. i have also seen it in real life when a doc was addressing a family and said this person was dead even tho he still had a heart beat. you are splitting hairs.

Sorry fiddy my fault.

I just never saw a corpse in the morgue with a beating heart. I’ll defer to homer and the experts that dead people can have a death certificate and a heartbeat at the same time. 

[I_M4_AU 9,022]

1 hour ago, aubiefifty said:

jj i just googled the stuff. if a man has no brain waves and they are keeping him alive by ventilation he is considered dead. even with a heartbeat. i have also seen it in real life when a doc was addressing a family and said this person was dead even tho he still had a heart beat. you are splitting hairs.

When the doctor talked to the family, did he just pull the plug or did he give that responsibility to the family?  And if he did give that responsibility to the family; why do you think he did?

[aubiefifty 18,398]

4 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

When the doctor talked to the family, did he just pull the plug or did he give that responsibility to the family?  And if he did give that responsibility to the family; why do you think he did?

well they did. the family was upset. but i believe he wanted to do it like a week before but agreed to wait because a couple of family members were going nuts. me? i was hurt and trying to tune it all out. i have no idea if he asked if the family wanted to pull the pug to be honest. i just do not remember. besides they had a couple of "conferences" with a couple of family members and it could have been discussed.

[I_M4_AU 9,022]

10 minutes ago, aubiefifty said:

well they did. the family was upset. but i believe he wanted to do it like a week before but agreed to wait because a couple of family members were going nuts. me? i was hurt and trying to tune it all out. i have no idea if he asked if the family wanted to pull the pug to be honest. i just do not remember. besides they had a couple of "conferences" with a couple of family members and it could have been discussed.

I’ve been involved in one of these situations and the doctor told the family members his thoughts and it was up to the family members to make the decision. I think there is a legal issue here.

[Didba 5,531]

On 10/4/2022 at 12:26 AM, TexasTiger said:

 

He’s easily confused lol

[Didba 5,531]

On 10/4/2022 at 7:47 AM, pensacolatiger said:

Do you cut pages out of your Bible on the daily?  

So very Christian of you to mock another’s faith. 

[pensacolatiger 313]

On 10/7/2022 at 10:23 AM, Didba said:

So very Christian of you to mock another’s faith. 

As a Christian, I would want to know if my personal beliefs contradicted my religious beliefs.  

[arein0 1,109]

7 minutes ago, pensacolatiger said:

As a Christian, I would want to know if my personal beliefs contradicted my religious beliefs.  

I know I have pointed out contradictions to your personal beliefs and religious beliefs and you deflected and criticized. Imo you are the definition of the Convienent Christian. 

[pensacolatiger 313]

2 minutes ago, arein0 said:

I know I have pointed out contradictions to your personal beliefs and religious beliefs and you deflected and criticized. Imo you are the definition of the Convienent Christian. 

There are fine China Christians and there are worn, scuffed up clayware Christians.  I’m the latter, grew up going to the worst schools, fought all the time, should have went to jail numerous times.  Through God’s grace, came out of school w/ 2 engineering degrees and a rewarding career.  But I’m still kind of hood, I still need to fight (In organized training), I still call someone a b**** if they act it, I’m probably never going to be fine China.  The Lord knows where my rough edges are and is working on me

[icanthearyou 4,468]

23 minutes ago, pensacolatiger said:

As a Christian, I would want to know if my personal beliefs contradicted my religious beliefs.  

What/who is your authority?