As Faith Flags in U.S. Government, Many Voters Want to Upend the System

[DKW 86 7,932]

I actually held off on this one for four days just to see if anyone here would even bring it up.  I was not shocked no one here did.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/13/us/politics/government-trust-voting-poll.html

As Faith Flags in U.S. Government, Many Voters Want to Upend the System

Desire for structural changes cuts across both parties, a Times/Siena College poll found, but for starkly different reasons. Even Democrats now question if the government is a force for good.

What Voters Think About Trump’s Post-Election Actions

What comes closest to your view about Donald Trump’s actions after the 2020 election?

Please go to the website. The graphic is constructed of Layers and does not work here.

Include respondents who said “some other party.” Respondents who answered “don’t know/no opinion” are shown A majority of American voters across nearly all demographics and ideologies believe their system of government does not work, with 58 percent of those interviewed for a New York Times/Siena College poll saying that the world’s oldest independent constitutional democracy needs major reforms or a complete overhaul.

The discontent among Republicans is driven by their widespread, unfounded doubts about the legitimacy of the nation’s elections. For Democrats, it is the realization that even though they control the White House and Congress, it is Republicans, joined with their allies in gerrymandered state legislatures and the Supreme Court, who are achieving long-sought political goals.

For Republicans, the distrust is a natural outgrowth of former President Donald J. Trump’s domination of the party and, to a large degree, American politics. After seven years in which he relentlessly attacked the country’s institutions, a broad majority of Republicans share his views on the 2020 election and its aftermath: Sixty-one percent said he was the legitimate winner, and 72 percent described the Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the Capitol as a protest that got out of hand.

 

The survey results come as the House committee investigating Jan. 6 revealed new evidence this week that Mr. Trump and his aides had a hand in directing the mob to the Capitol to try to maintain his hold on the executive branch.

 

 

Among all voters, 49 percent said the Capitol riot was an attempt to overthrow the government. Another 55 percent said Mr. Trump’s actions after the 2020 election had threatened American democracy. As with so many other issues, voters saw the riot through the same partisan lens as other issues.

Seventy-six percent of Republican voters said Mr. Trump had simply been exercising his right to contest his loss to Joseph R. Biden Jr. Asked if Mr. Trump had committed crimes while contesting the election, 89 percent of Democrats and 49 percent of independent voters said yes, while 80 percent of Republicans said he had not.

“If I’d have been Trump, I’d have been very pissed off about the whole situation,” said Charles Parrish, 71, a retired firefighter from Evans, Ga.

Among Democrats, 84 percent said the Capitol attack was an attempt to overthrow the government and 92 percent said Mr. Trump threatened American democracy.

 

 

Democrats’ pessimism about the future stems from their party’s inability to protect abortion rights, pass sweeping gun control measures and pursue other liberal priorities in the face of Republican opposition. Self-described liberals were more likely than other Democrats to have lost trust in government and more likely to say voting did not make a difference.

Key Findings From the Times/Siena College Poll

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The first poll of the midterm cycle. The New York Times has released its first national survey of the 2022 midterm cycle. Here’s what to know:

Biden’s struggles to win approval. President Biden is facing an alarming level of doubt from inside his own party, with 64 percent of Democratic voters saying they would prefer a new standard-bearer in 2024. Voters nationwide, meanwhile, gave Mr. Biden a meager 33 percent job-approval rating, and only 13 percent said the nation was on the right track.

Some in G.O.P. are ready to leave Trump behind. As the former president weighs another White House bid, nearly half of Republican primary voters would prefer someone other than Mr. Trump for president in 2024, with a significant number vowing to abandon him if he wins the nomination.

A tight race for Congress. Despite Mr. Biden’s low approval ratings, Democrats are roughly tied with Republicans ahead of the midterm elections. Among registered voters, 41 percent said they preferred Democrats to control Congress compared with 40 percent who preferred Republicans.

The class divide widens. Voters who said abortion, guns or threats to democracy were the biggest problem facing the country backed Democrats by a wide margin, as Republicans make new inroads among nonwhite and working-class voters who remain more concerned about the economy.

Americans are feeling dour about the economy. As inflation persists, just 10 percent of registered voters say the U.S. economy is “good” or “excellent.” Americans’ grim outlook is bad news for Democrats, given that 78 percent of voters say inflation will be “extremely important” when they head to the polls.

Young voters are fed up with their leaders. Just 1 percent of 18-to-29-year-olds strongly approve of the way President Biden is handling his job. And 94 percent of Democrats under 30 said they wanted another candidate to run two years from now. Young voters were most likely to say they wouldn’t vote for either Mr. Biden or Mr. Trump in a hypothetical 2024 rematch.

Americans’ bipartisan cynicism about government signals a striking philosophical shift: For generations, Democrats campaigned on the idea that government was a force for good, while Republicans sought to limit it. Now, the polling shows, the number of Americans in both parties who believe their government is capable of responding to voters’ concerns has shrunk.

In one indicator of how Americans’ perception of the government has transformed, the poll found that Fox News viewers were more optimistic than any other demographic about the country’s ability to get on the right track over the next decade: Seventy-two percent were hopeful for such a scenario.

Ray Townley, 58, a retiree from Ozark, Ark., and a regular Fox News viewer, said he was very optimistic about the country’s future because he anticipated major changes in Washington.

“They’re going to vote the Democrats out,” he said.

More than half of all voters surveyed, 53 percent, said the American political system was too divided to solve the nation’s problems, an increase from 40 percent in a Times/Siena poll from October 2020. The sentiment is now most acute among Black voters and the youngest voters.

The lack of faith is starkest among the young, who have little to no memory of a time when American politics didn’t function as a zero-sum affair. Nearly half — 48 percent — of those surveyed between the ages of 18 and 29 said voting did not make a difference in how their government operate

Mitch Toher, 22, said, “The largest divide is not necessarily left versus right, but those that are generationally old versus young.”Credit...Montinique Monroe for The New York Times

Mitch Toher, a 22-year-old independent from Austin, said there was little reason to vote because the country would not function as long as its government operated under the two-party system.

Mr. Toher, who works in information technology, said he was not optimistic that the American political system or its elected officials were responsive enough to address the needs of young voters. Voting for either Democrats or Republicans, he said, would do little to change things in his life for the better.

“The largest divide is not necessarily left versus right, but those that are generationally old versus young,” he said. “I don’t think those types of changes are coming any time soon, or at least forthcoming in my point in lifetime.”

Image

 

Rosantina Goforth said, “Our say really doesn’t matter,” adding, “I know Trump won that election.”Credit...Nick Oxford for The New York Times

Rosantina Goforth, 55, of Wagoner, Okla., said officials at every level of government needed to be removed and replaced with people “who believe in the United States.”

Ms. Goforth, who is retired from the Army and said she got her news from Christian news programs, is one of the Republicans who falsely believe Mr. Trump won the 2020 election. Voting, she said, has little bearing on how the government operates

“Our say really doesn’t matter,” she said. “I know Trump won that election. It’s a given. He won that election. But somehow or another, you know, people got paid and votes were mismanaged.”

 

Felix Gibbs of Niagara Falls, N.Y., said the government was not equipped to solve the two issues he saw as most pressing: illegal immigration and a lack of universal health coverage.Credit...Malik Rainey for The New York Times

Some voters expressed frustration with a political system they saw as ill equipped to address problems from across the ideological spectrum. Felix Gibbs, 66, a retired forklift operator from Niagara Falls, N.Y., said the government was not prepared the solve the two issues he saw as most pressing: illegal immigration and a lack of universal health coverage. I agree with the guy from Niagara Falls...

“I’m sure there are other issues I can bring up that will show that our political system is not working,” said Mr. Gibbs, who said he voted for Mr. Trump in 2020 and would do so again.

The Supreme Court, which has long guarded its reputation as above politics, is widely viewed as a political body, the poll found. Nearly two-thirds of those polled said the justices’ rulings were based on their political views, not on the Constitution, a belief shared by 88 percent of Democrats and 39 percent of Republicans.

Voters who backed Mr. Biden in 2020 said they were dispirited by the Supreme Court’s conservative majority, which includes three justices appointed by Mr. Trump.

Elizabeth Thiel, 40, an administrative assistant from Lilburn, Ga., who was among the millions of suburban women who helped propel Mr. Biden to victory in 2020, said the country needed to end lifetime appointments for Supreme Court justices. Ms. Thiel said the court’s recent decisions on gun control and abortion rights had undermined the popular will of the country.

 

 

“We see it in the way that they vote for and against things, and especially with the Roe versus Wade thing a few weeks ago,” she said. “It’s just not right. I mean, it’s just not right.”

 

 

Interviews with voters who were polled revealed chasms in American society that stretched far beyond policy debates in Washington and extended to cultural issues that often dominate news coverage.

Conservatives expressed opposition to proposed gun control measures and gains in rights for transgender people, while liberals said they could not believe that the country’s civil rights advances had moved so slowly and that the Supreme Court had ended the federal right to an abortion.

 

 

Image

 

Rachel Bernhardt said that Donald J. Trump’s election revealed to her the scope of American racism.Credit...T.J. Kirkpatrick for The New York Times

 

 

Rachel Bernhardt, 62, a legal assistant from Silver Spring, Md., said her family had been involved in progressive politics since her grandfather served as an economist in Franklin D. Roosevelt’s administration. Her parents participated in civil rights demonstrations in Washington, she recalled.

Now, she said, she has become disillusioned with the difficulty of persuading the American government to respond to what people want.

Mr. Trump’s election, Ms. Bernhardt said, revealed to her the scope of American racism and the extent to which Republican elected officials would cater to it.

 

 

“You don’t have to necessarily be a liberal Democrat to be a good person,” she said. “But what I had no idea until I was much older was how many people still believe in the Confederacy or, you know, just — if I saw a Confederate flag, I’d just assume that that person was some kind of mentally ill psycho.”

 

 

The diminution of trust in the American political system has come during a moment of vast retrenchment of local news outlets. A quarter of all newspapers — more than 2,500 — have closed since 2005, cable news viewership has sharply fallen and more Americans are getting their news from social media. The poll found that just 34 percent of voters were very or somewhat confident that major newspapers and television networks reported accurately and fairly about news and politics.

Just 7 percent of those polled said they got most of their news from a major national newspaper. Only 1 percent said they turned to a local newspaper. Among Republicans, 29 percent said Fox News was their primary news source.

The level of confidence in the mainstream media is lowest among voters who find their news through social media.

Jacqueline Beck-Manheimer, 58, is an independent who has voted for third-party candidates in recent presidential contests. She works at an employment services company in Albuquerque and said her news diet consisted of YouTube shows that presented stories they claim the mainstream media is ignoring, including the channel of Russell Brand, an actor who has become a prominent purveyor of coronavirus conspiracy theories.

Ms. Beck-Manheimer said she was upset about the Supreme Court’s rollback of abortion rights, members of Congress who took corporate campaign contributions, the increased size of the defense budget and profits that pharmaceutical companies made in selling coronavirus vaccines to the federal government.

The government’s problems would be easier to solve, she said, if the news media weren’t invested in sowing division among Americans.

 

 

“It’s the media who stokes the culture war,” she said. “It’s all a provocation to distract us from what what’s really going on, and what’s really going on is nothing but big businesses and their money.”

 

 

The Times/Siena survey of 849 registered voters nationwide was conducted by telephone using live operators from July 5 to 7. The margin of sampling error is plus or minus 4 percentage points. Cross-tabs and methodology are available here.

[DKW 86 7,932]

Some in G.O.P. are ready to leave Trump behind. As the former president weighs another White House bid, nearly half of Republican primary voters would prefer someone other than Mr. Trump for president in 2024, with a significant number vowing to abandon him if he wins the nomination.

More than half of all voters surveyed, 53 percent, said the American political system was too divided to solve the nation’s problems, an increase from 40 percent in a Times/Siena poll from October 2020. The sentiment is now most acute among Black voters and the youngest voters.

The lack of faith is starkest among the young, who have little to no memory of a time when American politics didn’t function as a zero-sum affair. Nearly half — 48 percent — of those surveyed between the ages of 18 and 29 said voting did not make a difference in how their government operate

“You don’t have to necessarily be a liberal Democrat to be a good person,” she said. “But what I had no idea until I was much older was how many people still believe in the Confederacy or, you know, just — if I saw a Confederate flag, I’d just assume that that person was some kind of mentally ill psycho.”

The poll found that just 34 percent of voters were very or somewhat confident that major newspapers and television networks reported accurately and fairly about news and politics.

Just 7 percent of those polled said they got most of their news from a major national newspaper. Only 1 percent said they turned to a local newspaper. Among Republicans, 29 percent said Fox News was their primary news source.

The level of confidence in the mainstream media is lowest among voters who find their news through social media.

Ms. Beck-Manheimer said she was upset about the Supreme Court’s rollback of abortion rights, members of Congress who took corporate campaign contributions, the increased size of the defense budget and profits that pharmaceutical companies made in selling coronavirus vaccines to the federal government.

The government’s problems would be easier to solve, she said, if the news media weren’t invested in sowing division among American.

“It’s the media who stokes the culture war,” she said. “It’s all a provocation to distract us from what what’s really going on, and what’s really going on is nothing but big businesses and their money.”

I agree and saw and identified almost all of that. Since 2009 and 2010 when the crooks on Wall Street got off scot free after raping the American Public people have been asking what was government good for? What was it supposed to do? No one was prosecuted. They drove the economy off the cliff and got filthy stinking rich doing it and neither the Fed Govt, the DOJ, nor the media held them accountable. Now days, if you even ask the the Feds or the Media to do their jobs you are looked at like a crackpot. They are both owned by the American Oligarchy and as Carlin said "They Aint You."

Edited July 18, 2022 by DKW 86

[PUB78 1,414]

28 minutes ago, DKW 86 said:

Some in G.O.P. are ready to leave Trump behind. As the former president weighs another White House bid, nearly half of Republican primary voters would prefer someone other than Mr. Trump for president in 2024, with a significant number vowing to abandon him if he wins the nomination.

Some in G.O.P. are ready to leave Trump behind. As the former president weighs another White House bid, nearly half of Republican primary voters would prefer someone other than Mr. Trump for president in 2024, with a significant number vowing to abandon him if he wins the nomination.

More than half of all voters surveyed, 53 percent, said the American political system was too divided to solve the nation’s problems, an increase from 40 percent in a Times/Siena poll from October 2020. The sentiment is now most acute among Black voters and the youngest voters.

The lack of faith is starkest among the young, who have little to no memory of a time when American politics didn’t function as a zero-sum affair. Nearly half — 48 percent — of those surveyed between the ages of 18 and 29 said voting did not make a difference in how their government operate

“You don’t have to necessarily be a liberal Democrat to be a good person,” she said. “But what I had no idea until I was much older was how many people still believe in the Confederacy or, you know, just — if I saw a Confederate flag, I’d just assume that that person was some kind of mentally ill psycho.”

The poll found that just 34 percent of voters were very or somewhat confident that major newspapers and television networks reported accurately and fairly about news and politics.

Just 7 percent of those polled said they got most of their news from a major national newspaper. Only 1 percent said they turned to a local newspaper. Among Republicans, 29 percent said Fox News was their primary news source.

The level of confidence in the mainstream media is lowest among voters who find their news through social media.

Ms. Beck-Manheimer said she was upset about the Supreme Court’s rollback of abortion rights, members of Congress who took corporate campaign contributions, the increased size of the defense budget and profits that pharmaceutical companies made in selling coronavirus vaccines to the federal government.

The government’s problems would be easier to solve, she said, if the news media weren’t invested in sowing division among American.

“It’s the media who stokes the culture war,” she said. “It’s all a provocation to distract us from what what’s really going on, and what’s really going on is nothing but big businesses and their money.”

I agree and saw and identified almost all of that. Since 2009 and 2010 when the crooks on Wall Street got off scot free after raping the American Public people have been asking what was government good for? What was it supposed to do? No one was prosecuted. They drove the economy off the cliff and got filthy stinking rich doing it and neither the Fed Govt, the DOJ, nor the media held them accountable. Now days, if you even ask the the Feds or the Media to do their jobs you are looked at like a crackpot. They are both owned by the American Oligarchy and as Carlin said "They Aint You."

Good and sobering information. I think one of the biggest issues in our nation is the wide divide between the East and West coasts, as well as the large urban areas, with the rest of America.

[DKW 86 7,932]

Opinion: Why Gen Z is done with Biden -- and Trump

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/14/opinions/young-voters-disillusioned-politics-zelizer/index.html

 

[Didba 5,531]

 

My reformation plan but would be extrapolated across US, also abolish the electoral college which obviously isn't spoken to in my paper since it centers on TX elections

 

Redacted Paper.pdf

[AU9377 6,090]

We like to blame "government" and are slow to blame ourselves for allowing elected officials to be more responsive to corporate America than to the average American citizen.  Unfortunately, “change happens when the pain of staying the same is greater than the pain of change.” (quote by Tony Robbins)  We have never been proactive when it comes to problem solving.  Few, if any, countries have been.  How much pain does it take?  That is the core of the problem.

[icanthearyou 4,468]

Democracy is dead.  More than one study has shown that congress does not respond to the will of the people.  Congress responds to the money of special interest groups, PACs, lobbyists. 

Being a "taxpayer" affords an individual no representation.  If you cannot make a member of congress wealthy,,, you are irrelevant. 

Our government is openly, unabashedly FOR SALE.

We have a third world government.

[homersapien 12,275]

On 7/17/2022 at 9:36 PM, Didba said:

 

My reformation plan but would be extrapolated across US, also abolish the electoral college which obviously isn't spoken to in my paper since it centers on TX elections

 

Most of our problems are directly associated with our archaic system. While I don't think it was intentional - I think the founders did the best they could do - everything is organized to avoid any progressive change in favor of maintaining the status quo, i.e.: maintaining power for those who have power.

Gerrymandering distorts representation in the house.  Two senators per state distorts representation in the Senate. (And then you have the filibuster which accentuates that minority power.)  The supreme court - which is really a function of minority/plutocratic power - gets into the act with rulings like "Citizens United" which distorts and accentuates power of the wealthy. (See ICHY's post above)

It's gotten to the point where I have lost hope in our evolving to a "more perfect union".  It's going to take a crisis or catastrophe for it to happen. 

And even then, the likely hood of a democratic regression in that event is just as probable - if not more so - than a progression.  Hell, the Republicans are hell bent on fascism even now.

Sad to think this may be as good as it will ever get.

Edited July 19, 2022 by homersapien

[DKW 86 7,932]

I think we as a people are starting to figure it out. I have no clue where this is going to go. But the problems in America are so strongly entrenched that we either fix this at the ballot box or with a gun. The US is growing apart at an alarming rate. For me, I do not see either of the two parties ever providing an answer for our problems. I just dont. If you stray away from party narratives, the cancel culture in both parties will move to destroy you. 

We have to many people that have chosen PARTY OVER COUNTRY.

[Didba 5,531]

11 hours ago, AU9377 said:

We like to blame "government" and are slow to blame ourselves for allowing elected officials to be more responsive to corporate America than to the average American citizen.  Unfortunately, “change happens when the pain of staying the same is greater than the pain of change.” (quote by Tony Robbins)  We have never been proactive when it comes to problem solving.  Few, if any, countries have been.  How much pain does it take?  That is the core of the problem.

It would take amending the constitution.

[DKW 86 7,932]

On 7/18/2022 at 10:36 PM, Didba said:

It would take amending the constitution.

And how do you even select the people that go to a Constitutional Convention? The party hacks would line up in droves. Corporate America would put every dime they have in it. I could see a CC being one of the worst ideas we ever had. Overturn Citizens United and try to correct it from there. I doubt we could ever get CU overturned though. There is too much $$$ in politics now.

Edited July 20, 2022 by DKW 86

[aubiefifty 18,398]

On 7/18/2022 at 5:00 PM, DKW 86 said:

I think we as a people are starting to figure it out. I have no clue where this is going to go. But the problems in America are so strongly entrenched that we either fix this at the ballot box or with a gun. The US is growing apart at an alarming rate. For me, I do not see either of the two parties ever providing an answer for our problems. I just dont. If you stray away from party narratives, the cancel culture in both parties will move to destroy you. 

We have to many people that have chosen PARTY OVER COUNTRY.

when the dems quit being a joke in alabama i will get more serious. right now i have been voting to keep someone worse in my personal opinion out of office than voting to put someone in office.

[DKW 86 7,932]

1 hour ago, aubiefifty said:

when the dems quit being a joke in alabama i will get more serious. right now i have been voting to keep someone worse in my personal opinion out of office than voting to put someone in office.

Ditto. I seem to have voted against candidates rather than for them. 

[SLAG-91 1,620]

33 minutes ago, DKW 86 said:

Ditto. I seem to have voted against candidates rather than for them. 

Seems like I've been doing this for 30+ years now, with rare exceptions...trying to pick which turd sandwich has the least amount of mold on it.