how many christians are pro putin?

[AU9377 6,029]

7 hours ago, SaltyTiger said:

Agree with your assessment but the things you mention do have a lot to do with Gods word. My opinion and told Itchy the other day. Feel that you have to study the old to understand the new. 

I would agree.

[jj3jordan 2,171]

20 minutes ago, AU9377 said:

So you believe that it is a sin against God if you do not stone your daughter to death upon learning that she was not a virgin at marriage?  That is just one of many man made parts of the Old Testament.  As we know it to be is the only fair way to describe some parts of the old testament.  Do you believe that men lived to be 600 years old at some point centuries ago?  Seriously man, the most advanced scholars of theology would laugh at the thought.

What I believe is that you don’t know why God wrote the Old Testament the way He did.  No. You are way off. Methuselah was 969. The most advanced scholars of theology are WAAAY behind God.  I doubt that advanced theologians laugh at God’s Word.

[icanthearyou 4,468]

11 hours ago, jj3jordan said:

What I believe is that you don’t know why God wrote the Old Testament the way He did.  No. You are way off. Methuselah was 969. The most advanced scholars of theology are WAAAY behind God.  I doubt that advanced theologians laugh at God’s Word.

I would be very careful making my salvation dependent upon the Bible rather than the love, mercy of Jesus.

Is it even remotely possible that the words of the Bible are only inspired when read by those with the love of Jesus in their hearts?

[homersapien 12,238]

This article pretty much matches my experience and current position toward the church and religion in general.

Why the decline in church attendance won’t end here

By Brian Broome

 

I remember sitting in the lunchroom back in high school when two girls began to argue and fight. It started with a sucker punch and then quickly escalated to hair pulling, kicking and body slams. The girls were fighting over a boy named Tony. But Tony was nowhere to be found. He didn’t show up to break them apart or ease the situation.

He was just absent. Meanwhile, the two brawlers tried everything they could to hurt each other.

I didn’t know Tony, but I do remember sitting there wondering where he was, if he cared or if he even knew the girls were drawing blood in his name. I remember thinking that someone should go and get him and tell him what was happening. But I also know that, wherever he was, this fight likely wasn’t his fault, and that these two young women were responsible for their own behavior.

This is how I feel about the idea of God.

I was raised in a Christian household, and my family is still religious. But, at a certain point in my childhood, the whole thing stopped making sense to me. I couldn’t work out why a loving God would let so many children suffer. The idea of eternal life seemed to be a way for people to skirt their fear of death or assuage the pain of grief. I noticed that the things people told me God wanted were, more often than not, things that they wanted as well.

I didn’t give it up all at once. Like many people, I went on a spiritual quest. But, like some of those, I quit the hunt after a while.

I stopped looking for the meaning of life and instead decided to just live it.

I stopped looking for an afterlife and now just try to be a better person in this one.

Of course, I know many kind people who practice their religion in ways that make us hopeful — in ways that are open and loving. People who aim not to convert, but to comfort. Not to shame, but to lift up. Not to demonize, but to include. I find this a testament to who they are as people.

But I often think that faith in God can be just as self-serving as staring at yourself in a mirror. The way a religion is practiced too commonly reflects the person who is practicing it.

If you want to be rich, you can find a religion that tells you that’s what God wants you to be. If you’re a misogynist, you find a church that will reaffirm your misogyny. If you don’t like our politics, or some of our political leaders, there’s a pew with your name on it somewhere, maybe closer than you think. If you are a hateful person, there are preachers for that, too. I watch people cherry-pick their religious texts to find what they want and ignore the rest. It was the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. who said that the most segregated hour in Christian America is 11 o’clock on Sunday morning.

We are not the only country where things work this way. For those who think it is a good idea to invade other countries, the battle cry will always be that God is on your side. Wars and atrocities have been committed in the name of religion throughout history. People fight over who’s doing religion right and who’s doing it wrong — or who are not doing it at all. Some religious leaders make no distinction between their role and that of their nation’s political ambitions.

All this fighting over who is most righteous in this life — or righteous enough to live forever — causes more problems than it solves. Divides more than it unites. Antagonizes more than it comforts. If your religion is telling you who to marginalize, ostracize and hate, that’s more than likely not your religion. That’s just you.

Church attendance and membership have long been on the decline in America. My guess is that because many folks realize that fear is at the root of so much religious conviction, the proposition has become untenable. Those fears have led too many people of faith to police the way that others choose to live their lives.

The trend away from church will likely continue. Most of us have enough fear and bullying in our lives already.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/03/13/why-decline-church-attendance-wont-end-here/

[icanthearyou 4,468]

2 minutes ago, homersapien said:

This article pretty much matches my experience and current position toward the church and religion in general.

Why the decline in church attendance won’t end here

By Brian Broome

 

I remember sitting in the lunchroom back in high school when two girls began to argue and fight. It started with a sucker punch and then quickly escalated to hair pulling, kicking and body slams. The girls were fighting over a boy named Tony. But Tony was nowhere to be found. He didn’t show up to break them apart or ease the situation.

He was just absent. Meanwhile, the two brawlers tried everything they could to hurt each other.

I didn’t know Tony, but I do remember sitting there wondering where he was, if he cared or if he even knew the girls were drawing blood in his name. I remember thinking that someone should go and get him and tell him what was happening. But I also know that, wherever he was, this fight likely wasn’t his fault, and that these two young women were responsible for their own behavior.

This is how I feel about the idea of God.

I was raised in a Christian household, and my family is still religious. But, at a certain point in my childhood, the whole thing stopped making sense to me. I couldn’t work out why a loving God would let so many children suffer. The idea of eternal life seemed to be a way for people to skirt their fear of death or assuage the pain of grief. I noticed that the things people told me God wanted were, more often than not, things that they wanted as well.

I didn’t give it up all at once. Like many people, I went on a spiritual quest. But, like some of those, I quit the hunt after a while.

I stopped looking for the meaning of life and instead decided to just live it.

I stopped looking for an afterlife and now just try to be a better person in this one.

Of course, I know many kind people who practice their religion in ways that make us hopeful — in ways that are open and loving. People who aim not to convert, but to comfort. Not to shame, but to lift up. Not to demonize, but to include. I find this a testament to who they are as people.

But I often think that faith in God can be just as self-serving as staring at yourself in a mirror. The way a religion is practiced too commonly reflects the person who is practicing it.

If you want to be rich, you can find a religion that tells you that’s what God wants you to be. If you’re a misogynist, you find a church that will reaffirm your misogyny. If you don’t like our politics, or some of our political leaders, there’s a pew with your name on it somewhere, maybe closer than you think. If you are a hateful person, there are preachers for that, too. I watch people cherry-pick their religious texts to find what they want and ignore the rest. It was the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. who said that the most segregated hour in Christian America is 11 o’clock on Sunday morning.

We are not the only country where things work this way. For those who think it is a good idea to invade other countries, the battle cry will always be that God is on your side. Wars and atrocities have been committed in the name of religion throughout history. People fight over who’s doing religion right and who’s doing it wrong — or who are not doing it at all. Some religious leaders make no distinction between their role and that of their nation’s political ambitions.

All this fighting over who is most righteous in this life — or righteous enough to live forever — causes more problems than it solves. Divides more than it unites. Antagonizes more than it comforts. If your religion is telling you who to marginalize, ostracize and hate, that’s more than likely not your religion. That’s just you.

Church attendance and membership have long been on the decline in America. My guess is that because many folks realize that fear is at the root of so much religious conviction, the proposition has become untenable. Those fears have led too many people of faith to police the way that others choose to live their lives.

The trend away from church will likely continue. Most of us have enough fear and bullying in our lives already.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/03/13/why-decline-church-attendance-wont-end-here/

Thanks for posting. 

Even the Church is beginning to realize that people are seeing Christianity as part of the problem, not a part of the solutions.

My hope is a new reformation in which the Church turns from focusing on the Bible, creating dogma and division and,,, begins to finally preach, teach and spread the love of Jesus.

[SaltyTiger 8,573]

1 hour ago, icanthearyou said:

Thanks for posting. 

Even the Church is beginning to realize that people are seeing Christianity as part of the problem, not a part of the solutions.

My hope is a new reformation in which the Church turns from focusing on the Bible, creating dogma and division and,,, begins to finally preach, teach and spread the love of Jesus.

Part of which problem? 

[icanthearyou 4,468]

1 minute ago, SaltyTiger said:

Part of which problem? 

Division, anger, poverty, crime, war, sorrow, suffering, conflict, hate, terror, etc., etc.

[AU9377 6,029]

15 hours ago, jj3jordan said:

What I believe is that you don’t know why God wrote the Old Testament the way He did.  No. You are way off. Methuselah was 969. The most advanced scholars of theology are WAAAY behind God.  I doubt that advanced theologians laugh at God’s Word.

I believe that it is a mistake to base your faith on the belief that God himself wrote many books of the Old Testament.  Man is too self serving to not infuse scripture with writings that serve those in power at any given time in history.  Interpretation and translation alone accounts for vast changes in scripture from one version to the next.  That is why I strongly believe the words of Christ when he clearly states that there are commandments that are superior to others.

Matthew 22:34-46

³⁷ Jesus replied, “‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’^{[a] 38} This is the first and greatest commandment. ³⁹ A second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’^{[b] 40} The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments.”

[SaltyTiger 8,573]

52 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

Division, anger, poverty, crime, war, sorrow, suffering, conflict, hate, terror, etc., etc.

So you are saying Christians exacerbate the problems?

[icanthearyou 4,468]

2 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

So you are saying Christians exacerbate the problems?

Not really.  My statement was more about the reason behind religion in general being abandoned by many.

However, if you are asking me specifically about Christianity then, yes, some Christians are part of the problem.  They have been from the birth of Christianity.  There are plenty of examples throughout history of not just Christians but, the Church as a whole.

As I have said before, sadly, being a Christian, no longer means you are a follower of Christ. And why, I believe Jesus in your heart is the real basis of, reflection of, faith.

Are you familiar with the Moravians, their influence on John Wesley, the birth of the evangelical movement?  Interesting in that it is almost the direct opposite of today's evangelicals.

If I may ask, what are you trying to discern?

 

[SaltyTiger 8,573]

4 hours ago, icanthearyou said:

Not really.  My statement was more about the reason behind religion in general being abandoned by many.

However, if you are asking me specifically about Christianity then, yes, some Christians are part of the problem.  They have been from the birth of Christianity.  There are plenty of examples throughout history of not just Christians but, the Church as a whole.

As I have said before, sadly, being a Christian, no longer means you are a follower of Christ. And why, I believe Jesus in your heart is the real basis of, reflection of, faith.

Are you familiar with the Moravians, their influence on John Wesley, the birth of the evangelical movement?  Interesting in that it is almost the direct opposite of today's evangelicals.

If I may ask, what are you trying to discern?

 

Topic is specifically about the Christians. 

[icanthearyou 4,468]

Just now, SaltyTiger said:

Topic is specifically about the Christians. 

I do not understand what it is you want to know?  If you have a direct question, please ask it.

What am I doing wrong?  Please, help me.

[jj3jordan 2,171]

12 hours ago, icanthearyou said:

I would be very careful making my salvation dependent upon the Bible rather than the love, mercy of Jesus.

Is it even remotely possible that the words of the Bible are only inspired when read by those with the love of Jesus in their hearts?

The Bible is where you learn about the love and mercy of Jesus.

No.  Otherwise a non Christian would not be able to read the Bible, understand salvation, and be saved.

[icanthearyou 4,468]

8 hours ago, jj3jordan said:

The Bible is where you learn about the love and mercy of Jesus.

No.  Otherwise a non Christian would not be able to read the Bible, understand salvation, and be saved.

There are no other ways of learning?  Have you ever felt Jesus' love in your heart?

So, anyone who is illiterate cannot be saved?  Knowledge of the Bible is knowledge of Jesus?  The Bible is the key to salvation?

Do you interpret the Bible as being literal? 

Do you believe we can have a direct relationship with Jesus?

Edited March 15, 2022 by icanthearyou

[jj3jordan 2,171]

3 hours ago, icanthearyou said:

There are no other ways of learning?  Have you ever felt Jesus' love in your heart?

So, anyone who is illiterate cannot be saved?  Knowledge of the Bible is knowledge of Jesus?  The Bible is the key to salvation?

Do you interpret the Bible as being literal? 

Do you believe we can have a direct relationship with Jesus?

There are many ways of learning. Yes I have since I was saved many years ago. Implying that the words in the Bible are only inspired when read by those with the love of Jesus in their hearts is just bizarre. The words are the inspired word of God written by scribes. I’m pretty sure God made sure there are no typos.
Obviously anyone can be saved by Jesus. Illiterate or not. There are other ways of learning of Jesus love.

By knowledge do you mean belief in the truth and perfection of the Bible? Or just know about it. Atheists and satan worshipers have knowledge of the Bible. 
In the Bible are passages which clearly layout the key to salvation so yes in that way the Bible does show the key to salvation. Any method of a sinner repenting, turning away from their sin, asking Jesus into their heart, and trusting Jesus as their savior would be salvation. 
Yes, I believe the Bible is the literal perfect word of God. I don’t edit it or interpret it to meet my philosophy.

Yes, through prayer we can have a direct relationship with Jesus. 

[icanthearyou 4,468]

2 minutes ago, jj3jordan said:

There are many ways of learning. Yes I have since I was saved many years ago. Implying that the words in the Bible are only inspired when read by those with the love of Jesus in their hearts is just bizarre. The words are the inspired word of God written by scribes. I’m pretty sure God made sure there are no typos.
Obviously anyone can be saved by Jesus. Illiterate or not. There are other ways of learning of Jesus love.

By knowledge do you mean belief in the truth and perfection of the Bible? Or just know about it. Atheists and satan worshipers have knowledge of the Bible. 
In the Bible are passages which clearly layout the key to salvation so yes in that way the Bible does show the key to salvation. Any method of a sinner repenting, turning away from their sin, asking Jesus into their heart, and trusting Jesus as their savior would be salvation. 
Yes, I believe the Bible is the literal perfect word of God. I don’t edit it or interpret it to meet my philosophy.

Yes, through prayer we can have a direct relationship with Jesus. 

"The words are the inspired word of God written by scribes. I’m pretty sure God made sure there are no typos."

That is interesting considering there are more Greek versions of the New Testament than their are words in the New Testament.

Interesting considering ancient language scholars debate the meaning of some words in the translations from Aramaic and Coptic to Greek.

Is there a single English version that is perfect or, are all English versions the same?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jj3jordan 2,171]

36 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

"The words are the inspired word of God written by scribes. I’m pretty sure God made sure there are no typos."

That is interesting considering there are more Greek versions of the New Testament than their are words in the New Testament.

Interesting considering ancient language scholars debate the meaning of some words in the translations from Aramaic and Coptic to Greek.

Is there a single English version that is perfect or, are all English versions the same?

 

 

 

 

 

 

What men do with translations can be corrupted by their own sin or errors.  Perhaps those are the issues you are talking about. The old “God is now here” vs “God is nowhere” debate.  Scholars of all sorts and levels have been trying for centuries to parse the Bible into errors and mistakes to no avail. But they have convinced a lot of poeple that the Bible is NOT God’s Word, just some good stories or an elaborate way to control people and get their money.  Look if you are being misled into questioning the authenticity of the Bible then it will be hard for me to convince you otherwise. I hope if you are a believer you will pray fully consider your position.  

 

[icanthearyou 4,468]

6 minutes ago, jj3jordan said:

What men do with translations can be corrupted by their own sin or errors.  Perhaps those are the issues you are talking about. The old “God is now here” vs “God is nowhere” debate.  Scholars of all sorts and levels have been trying for centuries to parse the Bible into errors and mistakes to no avail. But they have convinced a lot of poeple that the Bible is NOT God’s Word, just some good stories or an elaborate way to control people and get their money.  Look if you are being misled into questioning the authenticity of the Bible then it will be hard for me to convince you otherwise. I hope if you are a believer you will pray fully consider your position.  

 

I don't just pray.  I talk to Jesus and, Jesus talks to me.

I don't look at the Bible the way you do but, that's okay.

[SaltyTiger 8,573]

17 hours ago, icanthearyou said:

I do not understand what it is you want to know?  If you have a direct question, please ask it.

What am I doing wrong?  Please, help me.

You are not doing anything wrong.

[icanthearyou 4,468]

1 minute ago, SaltyTiger said:

You are not doing anything wrong.

You seem to be upset with my posts in this thread.  Let's discuss.  This is more important than politics.

I will not offended.

[SaltyTiger 8,573]

12 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

You seem to be upset with my posts in this thread.  Let's discuss.  This is more important than politics.

I will not offended.

Not upset. Curious and interested.  I can understand what you are getting at and understand disdain for the “church” by people. 

[CoffeeTiger 5,873]

37 minutes ago, jj3jordan said:

What men do with translations can be corrupted by their own sin or errors.  Perhaps those are the issues you are talking about. The old “God is now here” vs “God is nowhere” debate.  Scholars of all sorts and levels have been trying for centuries to parse the Bible into errors and mistakes to no avail. But they have convinced a lot of poeple that the Bible is NOT God’s Word, just some good stories or an elaborate way to control people and get their money.  Look if you are being misled into questioning the authenticity of the Bible then it will be hard for me to convince you otherwise. I hope if you are a believer you will pray fully consider your position.  

 

I think he's just pointing out that the Bible as we know it is mostly a collection of letters/mail, histories, personal stories and accounts, that were collected over the course of hundreds and thousands of years and whose biblical cannon were determined by groups of men. It's not as if the apostles specifically wrote the books of the bible with the knowledge that the books were going to be compiled into one source to be read for thousands of years into the future by billions of people. Much of the Bible is basically people's private letters written to specific people or Churches, not to us, and not necessarily an intentional collection of knowingly divine works. 

There's no perfect undisputable translation of the original Greek and Hebrew texts into English, and there are different translation styles and sources that can lead to different word usage and sentence translations. And even then we're assuming our original Greek and Hebrew translations were accurate. 

That's why there are 50+ different translations and versions of the English Protestant bible, even when the source texts are the same. It's why we have a Catholic bible, why the Orthodoxy's have their own bible...all with different ideas either of how to correctly translate the most original texts available or even having different cannon books altogether. 

 

I believe that ICHY is saying he believes the Bible is a good guiding document on the history of Jesus and to how Christians should live their lives, but he doesn't necessarily believe that the Bible we hold in our hands today is necessarily an infallible book that is the sole authority of God. That it is a possibly flawed but acceptably accurate portrayal of what God would have us to know.

 

You're saying that you have faith that God used his divine power to ensure that the thousands of different people who compiled and studied ancient biblical texts over the course of thousands of years put together the English bible to be perfect and infallible, with no omissions or additions beyond his original intent. That the books and writings  omitted from the bible were not inspired and that there are no inspired books or messages that have been lost to time or were misinterpreted.

This is what I was taught to believe also.

[icanthearyou 4,468]

22 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

Not upset. Curious and interested.  I can understand what you are getting at and understand disdain for the “church” by people. 

I understand.  I hope you understand that with a very few exceptions, participation in religion in general is declining.  The Christian church is no different.  People are seeing religious types as hypocritical and divisive.

By no means is this an attack on anyone's god.  I do believe it warrants self examination though.

I do feel, putting myself in the other person's shoes, that more spreading of the love of Jesus and, less law and judgement, coming from Christians would help.  I believe our Churches do a good job teaching the Bible.  Teaching the love of Jesus,,, not so much.

 

[SaltyTiger 8,573]

39 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

I understand.  I hope you understand that with a very few exceptions, participation in religion in general is declining.  The Christian church is no different.  People are seeing religious types as hypocritical and divisive.

By no means is this an attack on anyone's god.  I do believe it warrants self examination though.

I do feel, putting myself in the other person's shoes, that more spreading of the love of Jesus and, less law and judgement, coming from Christians would help.  I believe our Churches do a good job teaching the Bible.  Teaching the love of Jesus,,, not so much.

 

“Religious types” can be any number of things. Per the Bible Jesus was pretty “outdone” with the church and religion of his day.

Not really sure what you mean about “ less law” and Christian’s but fully agree with you on  judgement. Something most all of us have been guilty of. Has taken me years but we rarely realize others circumstances

Not sure the type of love you are talking can be taught. It can be exemplified and many churches work hard at it. Sermons and Bible studies take up a small part of the church calendar from my experience. Do not construe what I am saying to mean church attendance etc.. is mandatory.

[homersapien 12,238]

On 3/13/2022 at 10:09 PM, SaltyTiger said:

No it has not been the cause. Perhaps “attempted justification” by evil people living under the guise as Christian. 

 

That statement is just as true today as it has ever been.  And it will always be thus.

 

 

Edited March 16, 2022 by homersapien