My opinion of the difference in the QB play

[W.E.D 11,071]

5 minutes ago, cole256 said:

Right and like we thought with Bo. Reps matter. He came in a game cold as the number 2 him not hitting guys and being slightly off makes sense. Throwing high every throw and missing when you have reps doesn't

Imo Bo was more about coaching and fundamentals...clearly didn't work. 

I've said similar things about timing and hope he just needs reps with the 1s. Hopefully that's the case, but he was also a pretty inaccurate passer last year. Someone said HS too, but I've never seen his stats.

Either way it's still and excuse. I think it's logical thought process tho

Edited September 26, 2021 by W.E.D

[Swamp Eagle 5,269]

37 minutes ago, cole256 said:

This is how I feel it looked THIS GAME. Bo isn't accurate. He didn't throw balls to his guy, he lobs balls to his target and when he tries to throw the ball sails on him. It's very simple, and it's clear as day. And when things start getting tough he's not where he needs to be with his fundamentals. Harsin sort of mentioned this indirectly.

Now these are things I have preached and pointed out over a year ago so I can't be accused of just jumping on a trend or anything. I got specific so clearly I see this. I said the thing about blaming it all on Gus is when a real offense with pro concepts gets installed it will be difficult to a guy who isn't good fundamentally.

Now one thing that was mentioned to me in different threads was the completion percentage......I've never been just a number guy, I think numbers can be manipulated by a person that's smart enough. You have to watch the game. Finley just throws the ball better, but this game in particular he had 4 throws that hit the hand or finger tips. I'm not saying they should've been caught because they were difficult throws but let's be real. He came in a game cold, team looks as if they are going to lose down, all the pressure in the world and he's not getting the reps. It's ridiculous to compare it and say well Bo was this number and he was that number and that's it. No his timing was slightly off and why wouldn't it be. But he knew where to go with the ball, which is the most important.

Also while discussing this, the skinny post that was just missed to canion I think.....that's a throw that a lob can't get to. Missing 6 inches to the right is much different than 2 feet to high in the air. They are both incompletions but let's not pretend they are the same as far as improving. 

Ok something else, I guess we can agree to disagree but Finley didn't look ancy at all, maybe the first couple of series but when it was we either do this or lose he looked his most calm. I don't see how you can be ice cold in that situation then a knock on you is you looked ancy. Not to mention all the pressures mentioned earlier. He kept his eyes down field and made at least 4 plays when under pressure....But the knock is how he looked under pressure? 

I have a few more points too but I don't want to go on and on on the first post, like how he won the game making a throw that Bo missed two td's on earlier.....but if anybody want to discuss let's.

 

Also if you do decide to discuss and if I reply back and don't agree, that's not a personal slight. No feelings need to be hurt. You can disagree and still respect each other.....that is missed on here a bunch

I’m all for giving TJ his reps and opportunity. We’ve waited for 3 years for Bo to make his mark. He has improved in the pocket and staying home, but he still has happy feet, he still tends to not step into his throws, he still stares receivers down. He’s not entitled to the position just because his daddy played at Auburn, and I’ve often felt, with Gus at least, that may have been an issue. 
 

The young man is a good athlete, no doubt, but he hasn’t gotten so much better that he’s cemented into the position. I hope to see TJ start vs LSU. He’s earned it IMO.

[cole256 17,085]

Just now, W.E.D said:

Imo Bo was more about coaching and fundamentals.

I've said similar things about timing and hope he just needs reps with the 1s. Hopefully that's the case, but he was also a pretty inaccurate passer last year. Someone said HS too, but I've never seen his stats.

Either way it's still and excuse. I think it's logical thought process tho

Fundamentals is reps. I think you see that when he's under pressure he still throws off his back foot. It's his instinct. I'm not being an ass but the first argument we had pretty much everything I said is showing up. I didn't take spring game seriously or the others because under pressure is when you'd see the problems. You didn't see the first half but when the pressure really had built up and you could hear a few boos Bo had a play where he had a pocket and he just took off running without cause....the only thing you can do is rep it over and over until it's your make to throw a good ball in all situations. 

I think what I noticed yesterday is he wants to be able to play like an Aaron Rodgers but he don't have the arm talent. I think if he viewed it as he needs to do this to survive as opposed to thinking it's something you just do to go thru the motions it would get in his head. That's all a theory though, of course I don't know what he think

[3rdgeneration 6,645]

My take on this? I feel like Bo gets too amped up and when he does, all the fundamentals and decision making goes out the door.  My husband thinks that he needs a stationary bicycle to ride while we are on defense.  Or he needs to be given a few run plays where he is just hit hard by the other team. He needs to calm down. Benching him may be the best thing that has ever happened to him  I’m not sure if he’s ever been benched in his whole life.

My other take is THANK GOD Harsin had the guts to yank Bo and put TJ in!!!  Why you’d leave someone in who wasn’t performing is beyond me.  TJ came in and the major difference is that he was calm and focused.  I’m not sure he was particularly better fundamentally, I’d have to rewatch the game, but his decision making looked better, for sure.  He didn’t panic and his focus and vision allowed him to make things happen. I’m so proud of him.  
 

My last take is that I don’t know who deserves to start next week, because I won’t be there for practice or preparation.  As Harsin said, it is HIS decision and HIS decision only.  I don’t need to have an opinion on it.  I know we are all damaged by Gus’s decision making, but let’s all give Harsin the benefit of the doubt and support his choice next week. 

[cole256 17,085]

1 minute ago, 3rdgeneration said:

My take on this? I feel like Bo gets too amped up and when he does, all the fundamentals and decision making goes out the door.  My husband thinks that he needs a stationary bicycle to ride while we are on defense.  Or he needs to be given a few run plays where he is just hit hard by the other team. He needs to calm down. Benching him may be the best thing that has ever happened to him  I’m not sure if he’s ever been benched in his whole life.

My other take is THANK GOD Harsin had the guts to yank Bo and put TJ in!!!  Why you’d leave someone in who wasn’t performing is beyond me.  TJ came in and the major difference is that he was calm and focused.  I’m not sure he was particularly better fundamentally, I’d have to rewatch the game, but his decision making looked better, for sure.  He didn’t panic and his focus and vision allowed him to make things happen. I’m so proud of him.  
 

My last take is that I don’t know who deserves to start next week, because I won’t be there for practice or preparation.  As Harsin said, it is HIS decision and HIS decision only.  I don’t need to have an opinion on it.  I know we are all damaged by Gus’s decision making, but let’s all give Harsin the benefit of the doubt and support his choice next week. 

I'm glad we saw some of the same things. I really didn't understand some people saying tj didn't look calm

[CR 2,463]

If the losses start to add up(which I think they will), and Finley doesn't look like the answer(I think Bo's shown that hes not), does Davis get a shot to see what he can do, or is he redshirting no matter what?

[W.E.D 11,071]

2 minutes ago, cole256 said:

Fundamentals is reps. I think you see that when he's under pressure he still throws off his back foot. It's his instinct. I'm not being an ass but the first argument we had pretty much everything I said is showing up. I didn't take spring game seriously or the others because under pressure is when you'd see the problems. You didn't see the first half but when the pressure really had built up and you could hear a few boos Bo had a play where he had a pocket and he just took off running without cause....the only thing you can do is rep it over and over until it's your make to throw a good ball in all situations. 

I think what I noticed yesterday is he wants to be able to play like an Aaron Rodgers but he don't have the arm talent. I think if he viewed it as he needs to do this to survive as opposed to thinking it's something you just do to go thru the motions it would get in his head. That's all a theory though, of course I don't know what he think

They are both reps, but I'm making a distinction between coaching and reps just getting on the same page with players speed/timing/familiarity/etc.  

Yes. Tj still needs coaching, but I think the slight misses excuse isn't as much coaching as just getting on the same page with his WRs

[cole256 17,085]

And all of this was this game. Maybe tj sucks next game but imo if we could come up with reasons for Bo we can for tj as well. Also the other side I understand not being confident in tj just like many weren't with Bo

[AUx 3,166]

Finley's stature and mindset may explain him to feel safer in an insecure pocket. He doesn't need an expert line to protect hime for 5 seconds, and he's not wasting brain cycles trying to determine the bailout time and vector. He knows from experience that he has an extra half-second after someone grabs him where he still has his balance and can make a throw. It appeared he was eyes-downfield on set feet most plays. Same offensive line. Waiting and hitting a receiver coming back across to salvage the play (with game on the line) was a composed, cool move. Time will tell. More reps with first team can only help him and the team.

[cole256 17,085]

Just now, CR said:

If the losses start to add up(which I think they will), and Finley doesn't look like the answer(I think Bo's shown that hes not), does Davis get a shot to see what he can do, or is he redshirting no matter what?

People are saying that he's not ready as if in practice he's making some bad mistakes maybe? Idk. If I had to guess it would be turning the ball over as that's the most strict a coach will be over in my experience.

[gr82b4au 5,576]

3 things. 
1) It is obvious that when the OL breaks down quickly, as it did over and over and over on Saturday, TJ handles it much better. He stepped up in the pocket and avoided the overwhelming rush time and time again, making first downs and ultimately the game winning pass. TJ steps up, Bo runs sideways. 
2) I think Gus did not use Bo correctly, and I think that Bobo has not used Bo correctly. Bo is not a drop back passer. He is not an NFL qb, and that is the problem… he wants to be one. He is not accurate enough, the OL is not good enough, and he panicks. IMO we should be using him like a “mini nick Marshall package” …if that even makes sense. Almost like an option Qb with a tiny bit more passing. Bo needs to run 10+ times a game. This would free us up a little to other plays. 
3) I wish we had another game to start TJ instead of a night game at his old team’s stadium. And I wish we could combine Bo’s speed with TJs calm demeanor in the pocket. I don’t think either one of them are all that accurate, but since the OL sucks and we are not running Bo, I would start TJ. Maybe if crap hits the fan Bo will play better from the bench. 

[cole256 17,085]

Just now, AUx said:

Finley's stature and mindset may explain him to feel safer in an insecure pocket. He doesn't need an expert line to protect hime for 5 seconds, and he's not wasting brain cycles trying to determine the bailout time and vector. He knows from experience that he has an extra half-second after someone grabs him where he still has his balance and can make a throw. It appeared he was eyes-downfield on set feet most plays. Same offensive line. Waiting and hitting a receiver coming back across to salvage the play (with game on the line) was a composed, cool move. Time will tell. More reps with first team can only help him and the team.

Harsin sort of spoke on this in his press thing. He mentioned how everything isn't going to be ideal but you better be able to make a play. Our o line has to get better though....but football it's very rare a QB can have the ball longer than 4-5 seconds

[W.E.D 11,071]

6 minutes ago, cole256 said:

I'm glad we saw some of the same things. I really didn't understand some people saying tj didn't look calm

I'd love it if someone would cut up his 17 passes on YouTube. 

There was one pass where he had terrible feet. Threw the ball and his feet were almost next to each other and not great in a relatively clean pocket.

That was just once instant where he looked like Bo. Idk where it was in the game and 1 play isn't the end of the world. But maybe there us more of those instances 

[au302 2,669]

The composure both in the pocket and in demeanor is big. Really demoralizing and hard on o-lineman and receivers to stay locked in when your QB is panicking and sailing everything. No excuse though, as both those units need major improvement. TJ kept his head up and saw the field much better. He was making the right decisions. Execution needs improvement, but reps should help. Receivers also looked much better with him in there for whatever reason

[W.E.D 11,071]

5 minutes ago, gr82b4au said:

3 things. 
1) It is obvious that when the OL breaks down quickly, as it did over and over and over on Saturday, TJ handles it much better. He stepped up in the pocket and avoided the overwhelming rush time and time again, making first downs and ultimately the game winning pass. TJ steps up, Bo runs sideways

What's interesting is this was the reason most insiders said Bo had the nod to get the starting job.

[cole256 17,085]

Just now, W.E.D said:

I'd love it if someone would cut up his 17 passes on YouTube. 

There was one pass where he had terrible feet. Threw the ball and his feet were almost next to each other and not great in a relatively clean pocket.

That was just once instant where he looked like Bo. Idk where it was in the game and 1 play isn't the end of the world. But maybe there us more of those instances 

I'm actually surprised this isn't done by somebody. I think right now our national pizzazz isn't too high though so people who do stuff like that hasn't done it for Auburn lately

[cole256 17,085]

Just now, au302 said:

The composure both in the pocket and in demeanor is big. Really demoralizing and hard on o-lineman and receivers to stay locked in when your QB is panicking and sailing everything. No excuse though, as both those units need major improvement. TJ kept his head up and saw the field much better. He was making the right decisions. Execution needs improvement, but reps should help. Receivers also looked much better with him in there for whatever reason

When he threw that td pass his first thing was calming everybody on the sideline. I noticed that but didn't want to seem like a fan boy. But he was very calm and composed

[PowerOfDixieland 3,236]

11 minutes ago, cole256 said:

I said this and it ruffled some. Your footwork is literally the first thing a QB is taught. I'm talking 5th and 6th grade. To a QB it's like dribbling with a point guard in basketball and his dad being a qb and a coach and Bo being so behind in that......It's just very very weird

I don't know the basketball equivalent you reference, but I can speak to the baseball cross reference.  The power for any throwing motion comes from the hips and core, particularly the back hip which is the piston that fires the whole machine.  To get the most out of the motion, the feet need to be perpindicular to the target, which is what makes throwing on the run so difficult. When you see a pitcher miss high and away (which is where Bo misses on medium/high velocity throws), his front shoulder is open and he can't keep his backside through the throw completly enough to drive the ball on target.  QB play is so much more than just throwing that I'm not sure how much of the mechanics are actually being taught, even at the high school level.  Footwork is only part of the total equation and if the coach isn't communicating how it is all connected, it can't be assimilated.  I'm not sure it's something that can be overcome at this point, when he feels pressure he seems to revert back to opening his front shoulder to bail out (backwards) from the pocket.  Of course the medium to long throws, (which require all of the feet, hips, shoulders to be locked in) take time to develop and this O-line isn't helping in those situations.

If you watch Patrick Mahomes (whose dad is a pitcher and could translate the mechanics), his hips and shoulders almost always stay closed and on line.  If I were recruiting QB's, I would really want a guy who had played shortstop or pitched a bunch in high school.

[cole256 17,085]

1 minute ago, PowerOfDixieland said:

I don't know the basketball equivalent you reference, but I can speak to the baseball cross reference.  The power for any throwing motion comes from the hips and core, particularly the back hip which is the piston that fires the whole machine.  To get the most out of the motion, the feet need to be perpindicular to the target, which is what makes throwing on the run so difficult. When you see a pitcher miss high and away (which is where Bo misses on medium/high velocity throws), his front shoulder is open and he can't keep his backside through the throw completly enough to drive the ball on target.  QB play is so much more than just throwing that I'm not sure how much of the mechanics are actually being taught, even at the high school level.  Footwork is only part of the total equation and if the coach isn't communicating how it is all connected, it can't be assimilated.  I'm not sure it's something that can be overcome at this point, when he feels pressure he seems to revert back to opening his front shoulder to bail out (backwards) from the pocket.  Of course the medium to long throws, (which require all of the feet, hips, shoulders to be locked in) take time to develop and this O-line isn't helping in those situations.

If you watch Patrick Mahomes (whose dad is a pitcher and could translate the mechanics), his hips and shoulders almost always stay closed and on line.  If I were recruiting QB's, I would really want a guy who had played shortstop or pitched a bunch in high school.

I don't know either as to how to do it but I would use how QB's positioned their bodies in deciding to try to go after a ball when I played corner.

I know it's very advanced and alot goes into it though. I don't know how much it can be fixed either. That was my major concern going into summer. I knew it was much more than a coach coming in and saying don't do that! I know it was a long shot but I had hoped the Jordan Palmer guy vouching for him meant that maybe he was further along than I thought. I know it was a long shot but before the season we all hope

[W.E.D 11,071]

6 minutes ago, cole256 said:

I'm actually surprised this isn't done by somebody. I think right now our national pizzazz isn't too high though so people who do stuff like that hasn't done it for Auburn lately

Feel like copywrite has to be the only reason. 

I'd love to watch our 95 plays on offense with nothing else

[Dual-Threat Rigby 9,046]

1 hour ago, cole256 said:

Finley just throws the ball better, but this game in particular he had 4 throws that hit the hand or finger tips.

This section was worded a lot better than what I was thinking. Finley’s misses largely looked better than Nix’s…like a guy who just doesn’t have chemistry vs. a guy who straight up can’t throw.

There could be an overload factor where the OL consistently gets beat and Finley’s lack of mobility might be a problem. Or he tries playing hero ball. But that guy looked like a pro handling the pressure on that day. Hope it maintains bc if it does, I really don’t see how you can view Nix as the better passer

[cole256 17,085]

1 minute ago, W.E.D said:

Feel like copywrite has to be the only reason. 

I'd love to watch our 95 plays on offense with nothing else

I feel like I've watched people do this for high profile guys. I know in basketball people make clips all the time

[gr82b4au 5,576]

4 minutes ago, W.E.D said:

What's interesting is this was the reason most insiders said Bo had the nod to get the starting job.

I think most people thought that bo would use his feet to escape and since he is much faster than TJ, he would be the better choice when the pocket breaks down. The problem is that the pocket breaks down on just about every play, and Bo runs sideways. TJ actually steps up like you are  supposed to do as a quarterback. 

[JMassie11 1,660]

1 hour ago, cole256 said:

This is how I feel it looked THIS GAME. Bo isn't accurate. He didn't throw balls to his guy, he lobs balls to his target and when he tries to throw the ball sails on him. It's very simple, and it's clear as day. And when things start getting tough he's not where he needs to be with his fundamentals. Harsin sort of mentioned this indirectly.

Now these are things I have preached and pointed out over a year ago so I can't be accused of just jumping on a trend or anything. I got specific so clearly I see this. I said the thing about blaming it all on Gus is when a real offense with pro concepts gets installed it will be difficult to a guy who isn't good fundamentally.

Now one thing that was mentioned to me in different threads was the completion percentage......I've never been just a number guy, I think numbers can be manipulated by a person that's smart enough. You have to watch the game. Finley just throws the ball better, but this game in particular he had 4 throws that hit the hand or finger tips. I'm not saying they should've been caught because they were difficult throws but let's be real. He came in a game cold, team looks as if they are going to lose down, all the pressure in the world and he's not getting the reps. It's ridiculous to compare it and say well Bo was this number and he was that number and that's it. No his timing was slightly off and why wouldn't it be. But he knew where to go with the ball, which is the most important.

Also while discussing this, the skinny post that was just missed to canion I think.....that's a throw that a lob can't get to. Missing 6 inches to the right is much different than 2 feet to high in the air. They are both incompletions but let's not pretend they are the same as far as improving. 

Ok something else, I guess we can agree to disagree but Finley didn't look ancy at all, maybe the first couple of series but when it was we either do this or lose he looked his most calm. I don't see how you can be ice cold in that situation then a knock on you is you looked ancy. Not to mention all the pressures mentioned earlier. He kept his eyes down field and made at least 4 plays when under pressure....But the knock is how he looked under pressure? 

I have a few more points too but I don't want to go on and on on the first post, like how he won the game making a throw that Bo missed two td's on earlier.....but if anybody want to discuss let's.

 

Also if you do decide to discuss and if I reply back and don't agree, that's not a personal slight. No feelings need to be hurt. You can disagree and still respect each other.....that is missed on here a bunch

I actually agree with all this. Bo is talented but it’s obvious it’s something between the ears. The way he carried himself in the pocket game 1 versus yesterday was as it he had ptsd from a year ago. Everything he had worked on just disappeared under pressure. There were 2 throws Findley made that he shouldn’t have and could have possibly been picked off with better competition but to me the way he changed the game is his ability to push the ball downfield. Bo just flat out doesn’t have that ability. Just look at the deep pass in the Al State game and compare. Bo threw a floater that the WR ran under and then in the 3rd quarter Finley placed a 46 yard pass perfect in the back corner of the endzone on a post corner.

[McLoofus 35,182]

Finley wasn't great, but he was better than Bo. 

Also, it feels like the team stepped up their play for him a little. Maybe they just responded to Harsin trying to provide a spark and the name on the jersey didn't matter. But it felt like there was a little bounce. Maybe not so much with the OL though...

Seemed the same with Hunter vs Tank, too. Could be my imagination.

I think there is still a lot of culture rebuild to be done tbqh.