Freedoms we have lost

[MDM4AU 338]

Since it is brought up on here almost everyday, I wanted to get everyone to make a list of the freedoms we have each personally lost. We have got to send a message to Washington before we all find ourselves living in a Socialist society, which by the way is just a step in the progression to Communism!

Mine are...there's...uh...no that's not...OH YEAH, there's...no what a minute. I know! There is...no not that either...welll, there's...no wrong again. :unsure:

Let me get back to you. Everyone else go ahead, I need to ponder this some more because I know ALL my rights are being taken. I just need some time to get my list together.

We'll show the administration they can't do this to us!

[rexbo 104]

Mine is they won't let me in the cabin to fly the airplane when I want to anymore, because of the secured cockpit cabins...

[CShine 0]

Ever read the Patriot Act?

[rexbo 104]

Ever read the Patriot Act?

Not yet, can you summarize the freedoms we have "lost" since it has passed?

I have read some articles claiming how we have become like 1930's Germany, but yet to see one that actually explains how we have become like 1930's Germany. I think the point of the topic was for those that are extremely concerned about it, and have actually researched it, to enlighten us. Certainly, I think there are a great number of conservative, minimalist government types like myself that would jump on the anti-Patriot bandwagon, as soon as we have some facts to go with the hysteria.

[MDM4AU 338]

I GOT IT!

Wait...no...uh...Dang-It!

[CShine 0]

Under the Patriot Act, the President alone has the authority to declare any American citizen to be an "enemy combatant." Any citizen who receives that designation can be imprisoned without charge for an unlimited period. Any such person is also stripped of the right to be able to appear in court to make arguments in their defense, and is furthermore stripped of the right to be able to consult a lawyer.

These things are directly at issue in the case of Hamdi v. Rumsfeld. Hamdi is an American citizen arrested in Afghanistan more than a year ago. He has been held without charge ever since and has not been allowed to appear in court. A public defendant was appointed to argue the case for him, but Hamdi has never been permitted to meet that lawyer. His lawyer has challenged the case on Constitutional grounds, but his argument was rejected by the 4th Circuit Court of Appeals. The case is now under appeal to the Supreme Court.

Amendment 6 to the U.S. Constitution:

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

[Tiger Al 0]

I realize this is an insincere and rhetorical question posed sarcastically as humor, but it does illuminate an attitude of indifference towards the constitutionally protected rights of all American citizens and the laws that ensure them. America is in a time where we have passively given permission to our government to suspend or eliminate that for which we have fought to attain and keep, what we claim to hold dear, and what we believe others in the world envy us for; Freedom. Freedom not only to live the lives we want to live, but, also, freedom from unjustified and unregulated government intrusion into our lives.

We have allowed our freedom to be eroded because of the fear and anger brought on by 9/11. And because the primary targets of the USA PATRIOT Act and PATRIOT II presumedly more closely resemble the perpetrators of 9/11 than they do you or me, we have mindlessly forfeited many of our legal protections. In a time when we, as a nation, should've been doggedly determined to protect what so many have died for, we instead allowed our fear to be turned onto its' authors. I'm sure Osama bin Laden is very pleased with his work.

You asked, with a wink, what freedoms we had lost. First I'd like you look at some conservative responses to PATRIOT and PATRIOT II.

Second, look at what Al Gore had to say on this subject just this evening.

And then, look at some ACLU Fact Sheets on the different aspects of these two sets of laws. In short, PATRIOT and PATRIOT II have impacted the First, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, Eighth and Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution. For everyone.

Fact Sheet on Surveillance

Fact Sheet on Section 215-Personal Records

Fact Sheet on Patriot II

Section by Section Analysis of PATRIOT II

Truthout-Repeal the PATRIOT Act

The major concern I have over most of these infringements is that terms like "probable cause", "reasonable suspicion" and "evidence" have been so watered-down and diluted that they now can be described as nothing more than a hunch or a guess. Due process hardly exists. Once labeled a "terrorist" or a "domestic terrorist", which, BTW, you don't have to be to be "labeled" one because no evidence is needed for an arrest warrant, you can be held in confinement without access to an attorney for up to seven days, never having been charged with any crime. If you are charged with a crime, you can be detained INDEFINITELY.

What would one have to do to be labeled a "domestic terrorist" or an "enemy combatant?" Not much. Because of things I've written here on WEN and other sites, I could technically be labeled a "threat to national security" as a political dissident. After that, anything becomes fair game for the government. An anti-abortionist could be labeled a "domestic terrorist" because of acts that 'appear to be intended or construed to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion.'

The worst thing, I think, that has changed are the so called "Sneak and Peek" searches that are allowed. They are covert searches where the government can come into a person's home or business and search for whatever they like and never tell the person that this was done, because the occupant is not required to be present. Property may be confiscated without the owner's knowledge. There are often no limitations on what can and will be searched.

MDM, if you've read the information about PATRIOT then it should be apparent, and scary, that the answer to your question may well be "I don't know what freedoms I've lost."

[Weagle98 119]

"Those who would give up essential Liberty to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

-- Ben Franklin, Respectfully Quoted, p. 201, Suzy Platt, Barnes & Noble, 1993

[MDM4AU 338]

I realize this is an insincere and rhetorical question posed sarcastically as humor...

Then, you and Cshine need to get a grip and get your pants out of a bunch. Do you both feel the need to constantly rebut everything on a message board that is of a different opinion than yours? It's pathetic. I say the same about the conservatives on this board that feel the need to reply to every one of yours and DONUTBOY'S (how's that?), and Cshine's liberal editorials and rants. I don't feel the need to respond to every lib spewage thread, but nearly every conservative post get a rise out of you and Donutboy, as well as CShine. Especially you!

ATTENTION CSHINE, TIGERAL, and DONUTBOY!!!!!!!

JUST AS WE (RIGHT ) CONSERVATIVES WILL NEVER CHANGE YOUR CLOUDED MINDS ON MUCH OF ANYTHING REGARDING REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS, CONSERVATIVES AND LIBERALS, COMMUNISM AND DEMOCRACY, YOU WILL NOT CHANGE OURS! THAT IS OBVIOUS FROM THE NUMEROUS POSTS ON HERE FROM EACH OF US WITH NO CHANGE. THEREFORE, WHEN ONE OF US IN THE "RIGHT" SAYS SOMETHING THAT YOU IN THE "WRONG" DISAGREE WITH, TAKE A BREATH AND JUST LET IT SLIDE EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE. ESPECIALLY IF YOU HAVE NO CONCRETE PROOF OF US BEING LESS THAN RIGHT, JUST A TWISTED SPIN OF A REBUTTAL.

And for those of you who aren't sure or you're ready to blast me and my rant, this is what we call tongue-in-cheek!

[rexbo 104]

These things are directly at issue in the case of Hamdi v. Rumsfeld. Hamdi is an American citizen arrested in Afghanistan more than a year ago.

...His lawyer has challenged the case on Constitutional grounds, but his argument was rejected by the 4th Circuit Court of Appeals. The case is now under appeal to the Supreme Court.

The fact that an American citizen can be held this way was alarming at first, but after I read the 4th Circuit ruling, I am not as alarmed. I will be curious to see how it comes out in the Supreme Court. The question comes down to whether you maintain your Constitutional rights after you have taken up arms against the USA.

I don't see where the Patriot Act comes in though. In fact the ruling goes much further back than the Patriot Act:

As far back as the Civil War, the Supreme Court deferred to the President’s determination that those in rebellion had the status of belligerents.

FOURTH CIRCUIT

[Tiger Al 0]

I realize this is an insincere and rhetorical question posed sarcastically as humor...

Then, you and Cshine need to get a grip and get your pants out of a bunch. Do you both feel the need to constantly rebut everything on a message board that is of a different opinion than yours? It's pathetic. I say the same about the conservatives on this board that feel the need to reply to every one of yours and DONUTBOY'S (how's that?), and Cshine's liberal editorials and rants. I don't feel the need to respond to every lib spewage thread, but nearly every conservative post get a rise out of you and Donutboy, as well as CShine. Especially you!

ATTENTION CSHINE, TIGERAL, and DONUTBOY!!!!!!!

JUST AS WE (RIGHT ) CONSERVATIVES WILL NEVER CHANGE YOUR CLOUDED MINDS ON MUCH OF ANYTHING REGARDING REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS, CONSERVATIVES AND LIBERALS, COMMUNISM AND DEMOCRACY, YOU WILL NOT CHANGE OURS! THAT IS OBVIOUS FROM THE NUMEROUS POSTS ON HERE FROM EACH OF US WITH NO CHANGE. THEREFORE, WHEN ONE OF US IN THE "RIGHT" SAYS SOMETHING THAT YOU IN THE "WRONG" DISAGREE WITH, TAKE A BREATH AND JUST LET IT SLIDE EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE. ESPECIALLY IF YOU HAVE NO CONCRETE PROOF OF US BEING LESS THAN RIGHT, JUST A TWISTED SPIN OF A REBUTTAL.

And for those of you who aren't sure or you're ready to blast me and my rant, this is what we call tongue-in-cheek!

Ahhh, life was a little too confusing outside your protective box, was it? Keep trying, it'll get easier.

[Weagle98 119]

The only good coming from the War Between The States was the abolition of slavery. The great principle enunciated in the Declaration of Independence that "Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed" was overturned by force of arms. By destroying the states' right to secession, Abraham Lincoln opened the door to the kind of unconstrained, despotic, arrogant government we have today, something the Framers of the Constitution could not have possibly imagined.

http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/w...8/civil-war.htm

I'm not here saying the Civil War was right necessarily but what I am saying is that it was the state's right to secceed. So was the Supreme Court right in their decision?

[MDM4AU 338]

I realize this is an insincere and rhetorical question posed sarcastically as humor...

Then, you and Cshine need to get a grip and get your pants out of a bunch. Do you both feel the need to constantly rebut everything on a message board that is of a different opinion than yours? It's pathetic. I say the same about the conservatives on this board that feel the need to reply to every one of yours and DONUTBOY'S (how's that?), and Cshine's liberal editorials and rants. I don't feel the need to respond to every lib spewage thread, but nearly every conservative post get a rise out of you and Donutboy, as well as CShine. Especially you!

ATTENTION CSHINE, TIGERAL, and DONUTBOY!!!!!!!

JUST AS WE (RIGHT ) CONSERVATIVES WILL NEVER CHANGE YOUR CLOUDED MINDS ON MUCH OF ANYTHING REGARDING REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS, CONSERVATIVES AND LIBERALS, COMMUNISM AND DEMOCRACY, YOU WILL NOT CHANGE OURS! THAT IS OBVIOUS FROM THE NUMEROUS POSTS ON HERE FROM EACH OF US WITH NO CHANGE. THEREFORE, WHEN ONE OF US IN THE "RIGHT" SAYS SOMETHING THAT YOU IN THE "WRONG" DISAGREE WITH, TAKE A BREATH AND JUST LET IT SLIDE EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE. ESPECIALLY IF YOU HAVE NO CONCRETE PROOF OF US BEING LESS THAN RIGHT, JUST A TWISTED SPIN OF A REBUTTAL.

And for those of you who aren't sure or you're ready to blast me and my rant, this is what we call tongue-in-cheek!

Ahhh, life was a little too confusing outside your protective box, was it? Keep trying, it'll get easier.

:headshake: :headshake: :headshake: :headshake:

[Donutboy 0]

Since you were wondering....

Here's the freedoms you have lost.

On October 26, 2001, just six weeks after the devastation on September 11, Congress passed the USA Patriot Act. Ashcroft and his cronies wasted no time in attempting to further their agenda at the expense of a traumatized nation. USA Patriot is an acronym for "Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism", but all that elaborate language does not succeed in hiding the dangerous nature of the document.

So just what does the Patriot Act give the Bush administration the right to do? Well, for starters, it allows the FBI to monitor everything from e-mail to medical records to library accounts, providing frightening access to once private information. They can now legally wiretap phones, break into homes and offices, and access financial records without probable cause.

The Patriot Act broadens terrorism to include "domestic terrorism" which could potentially be used to target activist groups within the country speaking out against Bush's treacherous deeds.

The Patriot Act also disregards attorney-client privilege and authorizes government surveillance of previously confidential discussions.

Immigrants can be detained indefinitely based on suspicion alone, and the Patriot Act aids the excessive amounts of deportations that are taking place.

Calling this the Patriot Act is quite a dangerous action within itself, because the implication follows: if you speak against the Patriot Act, well, you sure aren't being a good citizen in our country's time of need. When Bush labels his actions as the model of patriotism, he then classifies all dissent as un-American. While this may be comforting to him, it is actually an insult to patriotism. Protecting the Constitution and the Bill of Rights demonstrates a great respect for the government of this country and the rights of its citizens, and that sounds downright patriotic.

Currently, the Justice Department is working on the Domestic Security Enhancement Act, an extension of the Patriot Act that has been dubbed "Patriot II". Perhaps one of the most dangerous aspects of this bill would grant the government the right to detain someone indefinitely without ever disclosing their identity, allowing the person to ultimately disappear. It would also broaden local police's ability to spy on "terrorist" groups, including domestic religious and political organizations. The government could take sweeping "anti-terrorist" action, like obtaining an individual's financial and library records without a warrant and allowing wiretaps without a court order. How else could this affect you? Well, if you engage in civil disobedience, the government would have the right to strip you of your citizenship!

[rexbo 104]

They can now legally wiretap phones, break into homes and offices, and access financial records without probable cause.

Another hysterical description without references. Please find the Title and Code that says this, and I will join in the hysteria with you...

[Donutboy 0]

They can now legally wiretap phones, break into homes and offices, and access financial records without probable cause.

Another hysterical description without references. Please find the Title and Code that says this, and I will join in the hysteria with you...

Ask and ye shall receive!!

Patriot Act

Here'a llittle more....

Need more?

Here's a comprehensive piece by piece article

[rexbo 104]

Assuming that the ACLU's assertions regarding the unconstitionality of some provisions of the Act are true, I am confident that the liberal court system in this country will rule accordingly. Thats why we have 3 levels of Government, it is called a checks and balance system. I don't think we need to begin an armed rebellion quite yet...

[Donutboy 0]

Assuming that the ACLU's assertions regarding the unconstitionality of some provisions of the Act are true, I am confident that the liberal court system in this country will rule accordingly. Thats why we have 3 levels of Government, it is called a checks and balance system. I don't think we need to begin an armed rebellion quite yet...

You'd be wrong. Our "conservative" court system is already siding with the administration over the enforcement of the stolen civil liberties.

Don't believe me? Here's an example...

[Tiger Al 0]

rexbo, I think you've claimed to be a Libertarian in the past. If I'm wrong, please excuse me. But, if you are, then why don't you simply go to the Libertarian Party homepage and see what they say about it. Here is just one article from their website. Also, go to Reason online which, I'm sure you already know, is a Libertarian publication, and a good one, too.

I agree with you about our system of checks and balances, but they have always applied throughout the entire system. PATRIOT circumvents many of those checks immediately by removing impartial courts that issue warrants such as search, surveillance, etc. Do you think it's right to incarcerate someone for weeks or months or even longer based on no evidence of wrongdoing, without access to legal counsel or their family and without even being CHARGED with a crime?

As I said before, I'm sure Osama bin Laden is very proud of his work.

[DKW 86 7,899]

The AL Gore at the ACS meeting was a hoot. Here he was talking about the govt rummaging through our info. While he and Clinton were in office we had Craig Livingstone, whose qualifications include wearing a Chicken Suit and a racist track record, working in the office of White House Security. He got the secuirty records for 900 people that he had no reason to view and was evidently dragging up all kinds of ammo for the Dems. But I see, Dem logic, Dems get caught and it is the Blameless Republicans that are doing it. Typical....

[Tigermike 3,715]

The AL Gore at the ACS meeting was a hoot. Here he was talking about the govt rummaging through our info. While he and Clinton were in office we had Craig Livingstone, whose qualifications include wearing a Chicken Suit and a racist track record, working in the office of White House Security. He got the secuirty records for 900 people that he had no reason to view and was evidently dragging up all kinds of ammo for the Dems. But I see, Dem logic, Dems get caught and it is the Blameless Republicans that are doing it. Typical....

David,

You should be ashamed of yourself! Don't you know they are democrats, they would never even look at those record, much less use them for political reasons! Besides this discussion is about what COULD happen under the Patriot Act, not what ACTUALLY happened under Clinton/Gore!

[rexbo 104]

rexbo, I think you've claimed to be a Libertarian in the past.

I am Liberterian leaning towards most things dealing with individual freedoms, and especially regarding Federal versus States rights. I believe the framers of the Constitution came together to form a Federal government to direct and constrain the States and guarantee individual freedoms with the Bill of Rights. The day to day governing of the people was left with the States. However, I believe the Federal government retains primarily the responsibility to defend the country as a whole. So, when it comes to matters of national security I lean way towards the right. My gut feeling and benefit of the doubt right now is towards our government in making sure another 19 men don't kill 3000 Americans; not claiming that 2003 America is the same as 1930's Germany. Anyway, so you and the ACLU and the Liberterian party keep hammering at them to make sure they don't go to far, I don't think anyone on this forum wants to see that happen, but at this point in our country's history I am willing to provide a little (not a lot) more trust in our elected leaders...

[channonc 466]

I think the Patriot Act is a dangerous piece of legislation. I don't think any of us should sacrifice "security" for freedom no matter which party is propsing it. This is very dangerous and I would say this if a Dem. President proposed this kind of nonsense.

[Tiger Al 0]

My gut feeling and benefit of the doubt right now is towards our government in making sure another 19 men don't kill 3000 Americans; not claiming that 2003 America is the same as 1930's Germany...but at this point in our country's history I am willing to provide a little (not a lot) more trust in our elected leaders...

And right there in that little kernel of trust is exactly where Bush and Ashcroft have placed their bet.

[TitanTiger 21,241]

I think the Patriot Act is a dangerous piece of legislation. I don't think any of us should sacrifice "security" for freedom no matter which party is propsing it. This is very dangerous and I would say this if a Dem. President proposed this kind of nonsense.

I have to say, there are portions of both the Patriot Act and Patriot II that are scary to me. While I generally trust that Bush and his advisors want to use this for the right reasons, it goes too far and I fear what uses it could employed for in the wrong hands.