not wanted...............

[DKW 86 7,899]

8 hours ago, homersapien said:

That just BS.   Maybe that's the problem here.  (Perhaps you are listening to DKW too much?)

I personally like Biden very much. I think he will do a great job. Most Democrats and/or progressives also like him.  They think he will do a good job. In fact, I guarantee you they like him better than they do Trump.

You are trying to make hay from the fact we all recognize Trump for what he is and would likely vote for the Democratic candidate even if it was someone we liked less than Biden.  Well, duuuh!

I guarantee you we would probably like any Democratic more than we would like Trump - which is not at all.

This whole argument is dumb.

Okay, so You like Biden?

Is it his creepy vulgar way with women and little girls on stage?
Is it his demeaning of Anita Hill?
Is it his writing the 1994 Crime Bill and helping putting 3-4% of Black males in prisons and destroying a whole generation of Black Families & Black Communities incomes and wealth accrual?
Is it his family profiteering off of every nation that Biden has dealt with?
Is it his support of EVERY f'in war that anyone can name for the last 40+ years?
Is it his blind support and complete surrender of all things moral and ethical to Wall Street and giving the finger to Middle-Class America?
Is it his being against Busing and supporting Segregationists? Kamala Harris told us so.
Is it his years of manhandling women in DC, as pointed out over the years including The Daily Show in 2015?
Is it his support of Nafta, TPP, etc?
Is it Joe turning his back on the GND?
Is it Joe saying he will Veto M4A and deny Affordable Healthcare to Millions of Americans? (If you think any Prog supports Biden at all, that notion dies right here.)
For forty years, Biden has been on the wrong side of history in almost every instance. 
If you really think anyone likes JB, you need to read the damn polls. Look at facts. 

You are snorting his convention bounce is all that is happening here.

[homersapien 12,230]

13 hours ago, bigbird said:

100% fact.

That doesn't change the fact that this cycle, just like the last, is more about a vote against one candidate than a vote for the other.

I'd love to get back to the original premise. The original premise is about the election and the similar motivations between the two cycles and how one side, after years of criticisms for a vote against, are gleefully prepared to do the same thing.

This is the part of your 'thesis' I have an issue with.  It punches a button.

If you simply want to say that (some) people justify their vote for one candidate as a vote against the other, that's certainly true.  Undoubtedly, it's always been true and will be in the future.  That's just the nature of politics and human nature.

And it's certainly true that a significant amount of people voted for Trump as a way of voting against Hillary. (At least that's what I have heard many of them say.)  Likewise, I am sure there are a lot of people who will vote for Biden solely because they are against Trump (presumably DKW).

But the statement above implies that the 2020 election is essentially a mirror image of the 2016 from a values standpoint - only Trump is Hillary and Biden is Trump.  That begs a host of differences - however nuanced they may be. 

Now maybe only a "blind partisan" would consider those differences worth considering, but when a generalized statement of fact is also presented as a 'values argument' - which statements like that does - it's fair to respond by getting into the 'weeds' of those differences.

So I will concede your original premise that many people voted against Hillary and many people are voting against Trump, but if you want to make a values judgment about that, you are inviting an argument over why that's the case.

[GiveEmElle 1,559]

18 hours ago, homersapien said:

This ^

I don't understand how any thinking person can compare Biden and Trump and imply there's any sort of equivalence or they represent two equally bad choices. 

Trump is a monster - a narcissistic sociopath.  He represents a clear danger to our democracy.

Biden is obviously the more rational - and moral - choice even if you aren't all that crazy about him.

Even a lot of life-long Republicans understand and appreciate that.

 

“Voting isn’t marriage. It’s public transport. You aren’t waiting for “the one.” You’re getting on the bus.  And if there isn’t one going to your destination you don’t stay home and sulk. You take the one that’s going closest to where you want to be.“

- Mohammad Safa 

 

[McLoofus 35,182]

On 8/21/2020 at 5:35 AM, bigbird said:

Let me ask something. If there was a candidate that was a blow hard incessant liar, with a terrible record on race relations, had a long track record of limited accomplishments and missteps and he was the democratic nominee running against Trump, would you vote for them?

If so, wouldn't that be the same as what you accuse so many on the right as to have done?

 

It sucks that we didn't have a better choice in 2016 and it sucks now that we have a very similar case in this election. I didn't vote for Trump in '16. I won't vote for him this time either. That doesn't mean I will vote for the other bad choice either, but many will. Just like it was a vote against HRC last time most on the left will cast a vote against Trump. 

You may not like it but the views on the issues may shift across the aisle, but the behavior being displayed by both parties and their supporters is the exact same.

 

On 8/21/2020 at 6:33 PM, Brad_ATX said:

Bruh, hate of a candidate is still hate of a candidate.  The motivation of hate doesn't matter.  The only thing that matters is if said hate gets people to vote against that candidate.

That's the point Bird's making here.

Again, take a 30,000 foot view.  You're in the weeds of why as opposed to looking at the overall parallel similarities of the situation.

Yeah, so back to this. People "hated" Hillary. Benghazi, Bill, just her generally cold, unemotional demeanor... she had missteps in public service and folks had some legitimate questions about her ability to lead the country, but she hadn't had 4 years on the job proving that she was overmatched. They they hated her. Everything was "I can't vote for that woman." So instead of voting for her, they voted for an obnoxious manbaby with zero experience and zero leadership skills and who, despite being born with a silver spoon up his ass, still manages to act like nouveau riche trailer trash. That is hate.

This cycle, people are choosing not to vote for a man who has proven that he cannot do the job and are instead voting for a man with an extremely long record of public service and who is clearly more fit for the job, even with his shortcomings. That is logic. That is common sense.

Not only is not "the exact same", but it's only barely the same at best.

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

21 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

 

Yeah, so back to this. People "hated" Hillary. Benghazi, Bill, just her generally cold, unemotional demeanor... she had missteps in public service and folks had some legitimate questions about her ability to lead the country, but she hadn't had 4 years on the job proving that she was overmatched. They they hated her. Everything was "I can't vote for that woman." So instead of voting for her, they voted for an obnoxious manbaby with zero experience and zero leadership skills and who, despite being born with a silver spoon up his ass, still manages to act like nouveau riche trailer trash. That is hate.

This cycle, people are choosing not to vote for a man who has proven that he cannot do the job and are instead voting for a man with an extremely long record of public service and who is clearly more fit for the job, even with his shortcomings. That is logic. That is common sense.

Not only is not "the exact same", but it's only barely the same at best.

The bolded is an assumption.  Polling shows over 55% of the American public that favor Biden do not actually like the guy and that he is not their preferred candidate.  It's literally a vote against the incumbent.  And I would argue most of that 55% have a visceral loathing of the President (myself included).

But again I say to you, get out of the weeds and look from a higher level.  You keep brining up all of these qualifications about Hillary or Trump, but no one here is talking about that.  From afar, it looks extremely similar to 2016.  Candidate A is despised by a bunch of folks.  Candidate B isn't great at all, but I'd rather vote for Candidate B than Candidate A because I can't have that person in office due to a general disdain of Candidate A.  This is the point being made here.

[McLoofus 35,182]

10 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

The bolded is an assumption.  Polling shows over 55% of the American public that favor Biden do not actually like the guy and that he is not their preferred candidate.  It's literally a vote against the incumbent.  And I would argue most of that 55% have a visceral loathing of the President (myself included).

But again I say to you, get out of the weeds and look from a higher level.  You keep brining up all of these qualifications about Hillary or Trump, but no one here is talking about that.  From afar, it looks extremely similar to 2016.  Candidate A is despised by a bunch of folks.  Candidate B isn't great at all, but I'd rather vote for Candidate B than Candidate A because I can't have that person in office due to a general disdain of Candidate A.  This is the point being made here.

I'm not sure you really read Bird's post.

Quote

the behavior being displayed by both parties and their supporters is the exact same.

The behavior is not the same when the disparity between the circumstances is so vast. Democrats will vote for a sentient human being in 2020. Republicans voted for a GD s*** flinging monkey in 2016. The former is simple logic. The latter was hate. There was no legitimate reason to think that trump would do a better job than Clinton. Zero. It was an emotional decision. This is not that. 

And please stop telling me I'm in the weeds. I understand everything very clearly. 

Hope pizza night was good. We do pizza at our house on Fridays, too. I enjoy it more than the kids. 

[McLoofus 35,182]

Oh, and it doesn't matter that Biden wasn't the first choice among Dem candidates, @Brad_ATX. You said yourself that he wasn't your first choice but that you'll gladly be voting for him. So will I. So will Homer. Because he is clearly the better candidate. trump has failed and Biden has some notion of how a government is supposed to be run.

[wdefromtx 3,610]

On 8/21/2020 at 5:52 PM, bigbird said:

At first I thought it was your comprehension that was misfiring. I'm relieved to know that you're just not reading the post. You not understanding the conversation makes a lot more sense now. 

Sometimes it’s hard to tell with him. Lol

But your point is spot on. People in ‘16 voted against HRC out of hate and mistrust of the Clintons and their past. Just as many are voting against Trump out of hate and mistrust. The basis of the reason is irrelevant because both sides like to completely ignore the opinion of the other side and their reasons for or against a candidate. Each side thinks they are 100% correct and shut out everything else. People can argue that the reasons against Trump and HRC are or aren’t equal. Founded or not, many people abhorred  Clinton just as much people currently do Trump. 

 

I’m not shocked many on here try to ignore this point. Lol 

 

[wdefromtx 3,610]

1 hour ago, McLoofus said:

I'm not sure you really read Bird's post.

The behavior is not the same when the disparity between the circumstances is so vast. Democrats will vote for a sentient human being in 2020. Republicans voted for a GD s*** flinging monkey in 2016. The former is simple logic. The latter was hate. There was no legitimate reason to think that trump would do a better job than Clinton. Zero. It was an emotional decision. This is not that. 

And please stop telling me I'm in the weeds. I understand everything very clearly. 

Hope pizza night was good. We do pizza at our house on Fridays, too. I enjoy it more than the kids. 

I’m not sure you read Birds posts. Brad’s take is pretty spot on and accurate. 

[homersapien 12,230]

4 hours ago, Brad_ATX said:

The bolded is an assumption.  Polling shows over 55% of the American public that favor Biden do not actually like the guy and that he is not their preferred candidate.  It's literally a vote against the incumbent.  And I would argue most of that 55% have a visceral loathing of the President (myself included).

But again I say to you, get out of the weeds and look from a higher level.  You keep brining up all of these qualifications about Hillary or Trump, but no one here is talking about that.  From afar, it looks extremely similar to 2016.  Candidate A is despised by a bunch of folks.  Candidate B isn't great at all, but I'd rather vote for Candidate B than Candidate A because I can't have that person in office due to a general disdain of Candidate A.  This is the point being made here.

And like I said earlier, that aspect of voting occurs in every election.

Bird made the point there is a moral and logical equivalence between the two elections, which there is not.  Perhaps that's an overly subtle point, but it's nevertheless important, especially if the author goes out of their way to make it.  It's just another way of "normalizing" Trump.

[McLoofus 35,182]

4 minutes ago, homersapien said:

And like I said earlier, that aspect of voting occurs in every election.

Bird made the point there is a moral and logical equivalence between the two elections, which there is not.  Perhaps that's an overly subtle point, but it's nevertheless important, especially if the author goes out of their way to make it.  It's just another way of "normalizing" Trump.

Yep. 

Also, Dem voters don't dislike Biden nearly as much as they did Hillary, which seems illogical and emotional (and quite likely misogynistic). 10% less, actually, on both "negative" feelings and "very negative" feelings. Less than half on both counts.  

Regardless, it's just folly to suggest that 2020 voters and 2016 voters face the same type of decision. That there's an incumbent involved alone represents a fundamental and structural difference in the conversation.

Can't help but wonder if some folks who didn't vote for Hillary in 2016- especially those who won't vote for Biden in 2020- want this to be the same type of situation. But it's certainly not. Democrats are not "fervently doing the same" as those who voted against Hillary in 2016. Democrats are voting for the better candidate, just as more than half the country did in 2016.

[SaltyTiger 8,569]

54 minutes ago, homersapien said:

It's just another way of "normalizing" Trump.

 

"You're trying way too hard to make this into something that you want it to be as opposed what is actually being said."

[homersapien 12,230]

37 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

 

"You're trying way too hard to make this into something that you want it to be as opposed what is actually being said."

I have quoted the problematic aspects of the subject post verbatim, as has 'Loof.  You are projecting.

[McLoofus 35,182]

I don't know who this author is but it's funny that somebody just circulated this on my feed. There's more meat to the piece but this is more or less the thesis.

Quote

It’s one thing to be a good-hearted but flawed human being who sometimes says something stupid or occasionally has an error in judgment or simply gets it wrong. Most of us fall under that category. We’re not any kind of evil, we’re just imperfect , emotional people, and so we fail and fall—sometimes slightly and sometimes spectacularly. That’s who Joe Biden is. He is one of us. He is human. We need more human these days.

It’s something else entirely to be an inherently malevolent creature: to be incapable of empathy, defiantly unwilling to admit mistakes; to wake up every day intending to do harm and feeling no remorse for it. If the word evil can apply to anyone, it’s the current President. He lacks a single noble impulse. Even his supporters know that.

I would much rather be led by a well-intentioned human who sometimes misses the mark, than a purposefully cruel sociopath who has no concern for other people’s pain. False equivalencies are irresponsible here. These are fundamentally different people in every important way one can measure such things.

I think people are mistaking "lukewarm" for something else entirely. And, again, I can only suspect why some might want that to be the case. Certainly, clues have been dropped in this thread.

[Brad_ATX 13,654]

2 hours ago, homersapien said:

I have quoted the problematic aspects of the subject post verbatim, as has 'Loof.  You are projecting.

And I for one believe you stretched those really hard to fit a narrative.

[wdefromtx 3,610]

21 minutes ago, Brad_ATX said:

And I for one believe you stretched those really hard to fit a narrative.

This goes back to one side completely dismissing the other side with regard to how they feel about  each candidate. How people feel about Trump and hate him is just like how people hated Hillary. Doesn't matter of the reason for the hate or if it is fully justified. 

[homersapien 12,230]

20 hours ago, Brad_ATX said:

And I for one believe you stretched those really hard to fit a narrative.

Verbatim is not stretching.