was lincoln a rasist? you decide............

[aubiefifty 18,231]

'"At the fourth Lincoln-Douglas debate, held in Charleston, South Carolina, the “Great Emancipator” began with the following [transcript courtesy of the National Park Service]:

“While I was at the hotel to-day, an elderly gentleman called upon me to know whether I was really in favor of producing a perfect equality between the negroes and white people. [Great Laughter.] While I had not proposed to myself on this occasion to say much on that subject, yet as the question was asked me I thought I would occupy perhaps five minutes in saying something in regard to it. I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied every thing. I do not understand that because I do not want a negro woman for a slave I must necessarily want her for a wife. [Cheers and laughter.] My understanding is that I can just let her alone. I am now in my fiftieth year, and I certainly never have had a black woman for either a slave or a wife. So it seems to me quite possible for us to get along without making either slaves or wives of negroes. I will add to this that I have never seen, to my knowledge, a man, woman or child who was in favor of producing a perfect equality, social and political, between negroes and white men. … I will also add to the remarks I have made (for I am not going to enter at large upon this subject,) that I have never had the least apprehension that I or my friends would marry negroes if there was no law to keep them from it, [laughter] but as Judge Douglas and his friends seem to be in great apprehension that they might, if there were no law to keep them from it, [roars of laughter] I give him the most solemn pledge that I will to the very last stand by the law of this State, which forbids the marrying of white people with negroes. [Continued laughter and applause.]”'
 

cuss and discuss................

[DKW 86 7,899]

What is rasist?

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/did-lincoln-racism-equality-oppose/

The quote as presented by Patterson, and in several Facebook and Twitter posts, is authentic. Lincoln did make those remarks on 18 September 1858. They came at the beginning of his opening speech at the fourth of seven famous debates with Stephen Douglas, during Lincoln’s unsuccessful campaign for the U.S. Senate in Illinois. Lincoln had been under attack from Democrats who accused him of supporting racial equality, and his comments were a defense against those allegations. 

There is no official transcript of those debates, and the accounts published at the time in two Illinois newspapers — the Republican Chicago Press and Tribune and the Democratic Chicago Times — often diverged along partisan lines, according to Rodney Davis and Douglas Wilson’s annotated “Lincoln-Douglas Debates” (page vii.)

Nonetheless, here are the most relevant remarks, as reported in the pro-Lincoln Chicago Press and Tribune on 21 September 1858. You can read that day’s report in full here. 

Chicago Tribune Archives

Despite the frequent spinning of the speeches by both newspapers, there appears to be consensus on Lincoln’s Charleston remarks regarding racial equality. The Chicago Times report, reprinted in Harold Holzer’s 1993 Lincoln-Douglas Debates, does not significantly vary from that published by the Press and Tribune:

I will say then, that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters of the negroes, or jurors, or qualifying them to hold office, of having them to marry with white people. I will say in addition, that there is a physical difference between the white and black races, which I suppose, will forever forbid the two races living together upon terms of social and political equality, and inasmuch, as they cannot so live, that while they do remain together, there must be the position of superior and inferior, that I as much as any other man am in favor of the superior position being assigned to the white man.

Of course, this excerpt from one speech does not represent the totality of Lincoln’s views on race and racial equality, but the remarks were far from a complete outlier, and Lincoln’s views were more complex and uncomfortable than the prevalent modern impression of him as the racially-enlightened Great Emancipator. 

We spoke to Columbia University historian Eric Foner, author of several books on Lincoln, including The Fiery Trial: Abraham Lincoln and American Slavery.

“There’s no question that: one, before the Civil War, Lincoln hated slavery. He always did,”  Foner told us:

Two, he shared many of the prejudices of his society. That was a deeply racist society both north and south before the Civil War.

He did insist that black people were entitled to what they call the natural rights of man — life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness…. And also that black people were entitled to what they used to call the fruits of their own labor.

During the Civil War, Foner says, Lincoln’s views evolved radically as he was exposed to black people such as Frederick Douglass, who were far more talented than he had assumed, and as the efforts of freed slaves in the Union army earned them, in Lincoln’s view, the right to citizenship.

 

[AUDub 11,840]

It's hard to apply the standards of today to what was considered acceptable at the time.

By today's standards, Lincoln almost assuredly was a racist. By the standards of the mid-1800s, he was a downright paragon. 

[aubiefifty 18,231]

4 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

What is rasist?

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/did-lincoln-racism-equality-oppose/

The quote as presented by Patterson, and in several Facebook and Twitter posts, is authentic. Lincoln did make those remarks on 18 September 1858. They came at the beginning of his opening speech at the fourth of seven famous debates with Stephen Douglas, during Lincoln’s unsuccessful campaign for the U.S. Senate in Illinois. Lincoln had been under attack from Democrats who accused him of supporting racial equality, and his comments were a defense against those allegations. 

There is no official transcript of those debates, and the accounts published at the time in two Illinois newspapers — the Republican Chicago Press and Tribune and the Democratic Chicago Times — often diverged along partisan lines, according to Rodney Davis and Douglas Wilson’s annotated “Lincoln-Douglas Debates” (page vii.)

Nonetheless, here are the most relevant remarks, as reported in the pro-Lincoln Chicago Press and Tribune on 21 September 1858. You can read that day’s report in full here. 

Chicago Tribune Archives

Despite the frequent spinning of the speeches by both newspapers, there appears to be consensus on Lincoln’s Charleston remarks regarding racial equality. The Chicago Times report, reprinted in Harold Holzer’s 1993 Lincoln-Douglas Debates, does not significantly vary from that published by the Press and Tribune:

I will say then, that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters of the negroes, or jurors, or qualifying them to hold office, of having them to marry with white people. I will say in addition, that there is a physical difference between the white and black races, which I suppose, will forever forbid the two races living together upon terms of social and political equality, and inasmuch, as they cannot so live, that while they do remain together, there must be the position of superior and inferior, that I as much as any other man am in favor of the superior position being assigned to the white man.

Of course, this excerpt from one speech does not represent the totality of Lincoln’s views on race and racial equality, but the remarks were far from a complete outlier, and Lincoln’s views were more complex and uncomfortable than the prevalent modern impression of him as the racially-enlightened Great Emancipator. 

We spoke to Columbia University historian Eric Foner, author of several books on Lincoln, including The Fiery Trial: Abraham Lincoln and American Slavery.

“There’s no question that: one, before the Civil War, Lincoln hated slavery. He always did,”  Foner told us:

Two, he shared many of the prejudices of his society. That was a deeply racist society both north and south before the Civil War.

He did insist that black people were entitled to what they call the natural rights of man — life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness…. And also that black people were entitled to what they used to call the fruits of their own labor.

During the Civil War, Foner says, Lincoln’s views evolved radically as he was exposed to black people such as Frederick Douglass, who were far more talented than he had assumed, and as the efforts of freed slaves in the Union army earned them, in Lincoln’s view, the right to citizenship.

 

i am not a lincoln hater by any means and i believe he was a great man. but i wanted to shake the tree a little. we all have faults and even with his he rose up to free them EVEN tho his own state still had slaves another year or two after the war was over. i read that in a historical novel. lee was no saint either but not over slaves as it is not the point i will make about him. he and grant fought and because grant claimed he won the battle lee refused to let the union folks remove their wounded from the field so many on both sides died. but i guess politics was big back then as well.