confrontation with reality

[DAG 34,553]

11 hours ago, ToraGirl said:

GREAT post.  While the names from previous threads are floating, I KNOW I saw Mario Cristobal's name floating right up there with them...

For me, it's just the astronomical money, and, as ad nauseum discussed on countless threads, the fear-jerk catalyst that brought it about.  And the dashed expectations for such.  High salary, high bar.  Show me personal/professional growth, accountability, results, and continued team/staff cohesion, I might hu$h about the money.  Pulling for the entire team...including our coaches.  Maybe if the phrase "slant route" gets out there enough, it might hit the ears that need to hear it most?

Yeah Mario was a hot commodity because he can recruit . What I will say is where the coaches are make a big difference too. Nick saban couldn’t win near as much as Michigan State. Didn’t make him less effective when he got to LSU and Bama. So from that perspective , I wouldn’t completely disregard those coaches doing less with more. 

[Cardin Drake 2,074]

We've been to 2 national championship games with Malzhan in his 10 years at Auburn. (Yes, one he was not the head coach).   There are only a handful on coaches I would trade him for right now.  Sure, everyone wants Dabo. I'd like him too.  He changed a mid-tier program into an elite one. I can't name anybody else who's done that in the last 20 years. And he's not coming. Who else?  I don't know, maybe there's a couple. 

I've always felt a head coach's main job is recruiting. Bring the talent, and you'll win.  I like what Gus has done there. It's very good, and getting better. There are 2 programs right now outrecruiting everyone. Maybe 3 with Georgia.  I don't want to dismantle what we have in the hopes of landing the guy who will put us into that category.  We have a better chance of getting there by building on what we already have instead of starting over.

We need success on the field to take us to the next level.  But we have an insane gamut to run this year. Like we do almost EVERY year.  How often would Clemson beat Georgia, then Bama, then Georgia again?  And we added Florida and Oregon to the already crazy hard mix this year.   You have to be very, very good to even have a chance. Then you need to mix in a little magic and luck.  It won't happen often.   We are very, very good. Especially defensively.  Will we get the magic and luck?  Who knows, but it's going to be fun to watch. I don't think it's realistic to ask for more than that out of your head coach.

 

 

[bigbird 60,926]

56 minutes ago, keesler said:

I remember when Auburn's Trooper Taylor was using the same bag man (Willie Lyles) that Chip was using to snag Lache Seastrunk.  Oregon out bid us and he landed at Oregon until the NCAA investigation put OU on 3 yrs probation and 3 lost scholarships.  Chip bolted for the NFL, the NCAA gave Seastrunk a clear cut transfer and he went to play for another shady character, Art Briles at Baylor.  Good Times!

Wrong

[AUGunsmith 666]

12 hours ago, penguin149 said:

Chip Kelley???  Probation at Oregon.  Can't recruit without bag men.

Mike Leach???  Dude's a good coach but off the charts crazy!  The media would eat him alive in the SEC.  Remember Mike Price?  He was clueless that his rendezvous with Destiny would be found out.

The pirate would destroy the SEC media. With the poor leadership auburn has displayed, we dont deserve leach yet. But oh how sweet it would be to have him destroy the SEC. 

 

Fire gus, GIVE US THE PIRATE!!!

[Tiger 8,853]

Whenever it may be, Gus will undoubtedly leave this program better than he found it. He came in after a 3 win debacle where players were having tons of behavioral problems and a program that was not dealing with discipline in the right manner. The squad went 0-8 in the conference and was severely wounded after the slow burn of Chizik's leadership eventually melted the floor out from under the program. Now when Gus came in it took some time but he really raised the overall character of kids he was bringing into the program. He doesn't really skirt the line in recruiting, apparently, while also bringing in top 10 skill talent. He does everything in a classy manner and embodies what a lot of AU fans want in a coach when it comes to being a good man and respectable.

That being said, our rivals want us to keep him forever. And it ain't because he's a good guy. It is in their best interests for Auburn to be down. Remember how bad we wanted Bama to keep Mike Shula? Yikes.

Now we've been waiting a while for him to find his Dabo-like footing in the HC world. The issue is there there are still some things that he has not improved on from the moment he took the job. There are things that make it seem like he's not trying to give the team the best chance to win. Obviously being hyperbolic there but he flatly refuses -- or just doesn't recognize some of these things, which may be a bigger problem in itself. So it feels like some people are ok with progress just for the sake of progress without taking into account how fast this progress should be happening. I'm far too impatient to feel like our HC is still figuring things out 7 years onto the job and be ok with it. I need to see some real, cold, hard progress from Gus this season to start feeling good about anything. But I'm afraid I won't even be 100% in at that point because we've seen him do this "gotcha" routine time and time again. That doesn't mean I'm not pulling for him and the fellas each and every Saturday, though. In an ideal world Gus figures this crap out and makes 8 wins our absolute floor where we are only getting 8 wins once every 5 years or something rather than making it his norm. 

[gravejd 3,304]

Gus has to find consistency. One big win over Oregon is going to mean nothing if we are sitting at 8-5 or 7-6 at the end of the season. I'll learn to forgive his past mistakes if he can show me a team that plays up to their potential week in and week out for an entire season and if there are no "fireable" mistakes throughout the season. Almost every year he has done something that in my view would be considered a fireable offense. He has to grow beyond making those type of decisions. 

I don't buy into the logic that we keep a coach simply because you may or may not find something better. 

[AU-24 3,128]

On 9/2/2019 at 5:11 PM, Gowebb11 said:

If Dabo and Riley played our schedule every year, what would their record be?  I’m sure they would have success, but not 12 win a year success. 

I believe the heavens just opened up, and commonsense has moved in amongst us! Thank you so much for the post.

Those of us that support Gus or semi support Gus.....show us the guaranteed up-and-coming Dudley Sweeney or Nick Satan and we will gladly say: buy-out Gus’s contract and hire. That up and coming guy, as far as we know, is just not out there.

[Auctoritas 2,894]

1 hour ago, gravejd said:

Gus has to find consistency. One big win over Oregon is going to mean nothing if we are sitting at 8-5 or 7-6 at the end of the season. I'll learn to forgive his past mistakes if he can show me a team that plays up to their potential week in and week out for an entire season and if there are no "fireable" mistakes throughout the season. Almost every year he has done something that in my view would be considered a fireable offense. He has to grow beyond making those type of decisions. 

I don't buy into the logic that we keep a coach simply because you may or may not find something better. 

You mean like covering up sexual assault or riding around on a motorcycle with an in-program mistress or paying players or covering up cheating or embezzlement of department funds or having a bunch of his players arrested or having a bunch of players in trouble but not doing anything about it or going 3-9 or 5-7 or whatever multiple years in a row or having the NCAA come down like a hammer and not cooperating or bringing discredit to the university or assaulting and abusing the players or having players actually die?

 

Or are you just talking about poor O Line play?

 

Seriously. Some of you people need to recalibrate. 

[doug3020 842]

3 hours ago, Mikey said:

Revisit it after the first loss, whenever that may be. There are a few of us that have been saying basically these same positive things for some time. Many others have been whining/griping/bashing Gus and wanting to change coaches for years now. No reasonable suggestions for a replacement, no idea how well some up and comer might do, just fire Gus and devil take the hindmost.  Have no fear, they will revert to form as soon as we lose a game, no matter when that might happen.

It's foolish to say we'll go undefeated. That's unrealistic, but he should be more than an 8-4 coach imo. It's up to the AD to have a list of replacements in his top drawer. If it's the boards job to nominate, I'll nominate Belichick. Sometimes one has to take risk to improve. Risk also comes with the possibility of failure. I'm no CGM disciple, but I'm willing to see how we progress. To me, that defines a coach. Do his teams improve throughout the year or do they become stale.

Hope everyone is enjoying their Wednesday.

WDE!

[Tiger 8,853]

1 minute ago, Auctoritas said:

You mean like covering up sexual assault or riding around on a motorcycle with an in-program mistress or paying players or covering up cheating or embezzlement of department funds or having a bunch of his players arrested or having a bunch of players in trouble but not doing anything about it or going 3-9 or 5-7 or whatever multiple years in a row or having the NCAA come down like a hammer and not cooperating or bringing discredit to the university or assaulting and abusing the players or having players actually die?

 

Or are you just talking about poor O Line play?

 

Seriously. Some of you people need to recalibrate. 

Those are egregious outliers within the coaching profession. That is not the bar or standard Gus is held to. We absolutely appreciate him representing AU well. Big time. Unfortunately that's not all his job requires of him though

[Auctoritas 2,894]

32 minutes ago, Tiger said:

Those are egregious outliers within the coaching profession. That is not the bar or standard Gus is held to. We absolutely appreciate him representing AU well. Big time. Unfortunately that's not all his job requires of him though

Mea culpa: I bolded the wrong part. My issue was with the idea that individual games are"fireable offenses" which is ludicrous.

 

But, to your post, you concur that it is at least one part of it? What portion of his job is the 60 minutes on a Saturday vs the many other activities and outcomes?

 

[Cardin Drake 2,074]

The best way to improve our record for the next 20 years is to call BS on Missouri being in the SEC east.  We need to trade with them.  We'll double our appearances in the SEC title game.

[Mike4AU 1,755]

2 hours ago, Tiger said:

Whenever it may be, Gus will undoubtedly leave this program better than he found it. He came in after a 3 win debacle where players were having tons of behavioral problems and a program that was not dealing with discipline in the right manner. The squad went 0-8 in the conference and was severely wounded after the slow burn of Chizik's leadership eventually melted the floor out from under the program. Now when Gus came in it took some time but he really raised the overall character of kids he was bringing into the program. He doesn't really skirt the line in recruiting, apparently, while also bringing in top 10 skill talent. He does everything in a classy manner and embodies what a lot of AU fans want in a coach when it comes to being a good man and respectable.

That being said, our rivals want us to keep him forever. And it ain't because he's a good guy. It is in their best interests for Auburn to be down. Remember how bad we wanted Bama to keep Mike Shula? Yikes.

Now we've been waiting a while for him to find his Dabo-like footing in the HC world. The issue is there there are still some things that he has not improved on from the moment he took the job. There are things that make it seem like he's not trying to give the team the best chance to win. Obviously being hyperbolic there but he flatly refuses -- or just doesn't recognize some of these things, which may be a bigger problem in itself. So it feels like some people are ok with progress just for the sake of progress without taking into account how fast this progress should be happening. I'm far too impatient to feel like our HC is still figuring things out 7 years onto the job and be ok with it. I need to see some real, cold, hard progress from Gus this season to start feeling good about anything. But I'm afraid I won't even be 100% in at that point because we've seen him do this "gotcha" routine time and time again. That doesn't mean I'm not pulling for him and the fellas each and every Saturday, though. In an ideal world Gus figures this crap out and makes 8 wins our absolute floor where we are only getting 8 wins once every 5 years or something rather than making it his norm. 

I completely agree, but his contractual buyout means he is not going anywhere soon.  I think that even if the wheels come off the Bus, he will be safe.  

[keesler 5,943]

1 hour ago, AU-24 said:

I believe the heavens just opened up, and commonsense has moved in amongst us! Thank you so much for the post.

Those of us that support Gus or semi support Gus.....show us the guaranteed up-and-coming Dudley Sweeney or Nick Satan and we will gladly say: buy-out Gus’s contract and hire. That up and coming guy, as far as we know, is just not out there.

I don't know if "that" guy is out there either.  At some point a program has to choose how much longer they're willing to wait on a staff to get over this hump of mediocrity.  Is it another year or two, or wait around until the buy-out becomes something less obscene?

As an alum with 2 kids currently at AU, I can't think of anything worse that watching a rabid fan base lower expectations to the point where if AU only loses 3-4 games this year many fans will accept it as long as the team "looks competitive" in the losses.  

 

 

[Tiger 8,853]

1 hour ago, Auctoritas said:

Mea culpa: I bolded the wrong part. My issue was with the idea that individual games are"fireable offenses" which is ludicrous.

 

But, to your post, you concur that it is at least one part of it? What portion of his job is the 60 minutes on a Saturday vs the many other activities and outcomes?

 

IMO he deserves tonsssss of credit for keeping AU out of a negative light and bringing in high character kids who represent the university well. That was one of his objectives when he was hired and he has 100% accomplished this. I think even the biggest Gus hater on here would give him that. I mean things were bad. Armed robberies, failed drug tests going unpunished, Chizik had to hire a damn independent security team if I'm not mistaken to make sure guys were following curfew ugh. Thankfully those days are long gone.

I just personally don't think that that should be the most important thing when it comes to saving his job though. If you lose enough the off-field good stuff goes out the window.  Just like at most places, if you win enough the bad off-field stuff also goes out the window. So that seems to be on a sliding scale. UGA fans will be less forgiving of Kirby's players getting in trouble if he starts turning in 8 win seasons, for example. 

I agree 1 game shouldn't be a fireable offense. But I can see how, to some people, Gus has used up all his rope and 1 game could make someone fall on one side of the fence or the other. And 1 game in particular shouldn't decide his job status, but going .500 vs Miss State over a 6 year period is definitely fireable at a place like Auburn JMO. Particularly if that record against MSU in the midst of a string of 8 wins (or fewer) seasons. If we're saying what portion of his job is on-field performance vs off-field? I'd say outcomes on Saturday is 80% of what dictates his job security. The other stuff either buys him more time or gets him canned quicker. With how well he's done outside of Saturdays he had bought himself some time and an ill-timed contract extension truly saved him last year. 

It feels good to be proud of the men that Gus molds. But ultimately it doesn't excuse him from handing in subpar W/L records. 

What portion would you say Saturdays make up for his job security?

[IronMan70 3,321]

On ‎9‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 11:19 PM, tbone4jc said:

Funny thing....some "fans" just cannot appreciate ANYTHING this coach has done. Y'all who criticize CGM for every bad issue ( and half hearted props for good or great things he has done) are acting soooooo similar to the other fan bases you claim to hate so much or claim that Auburn fan base is so much better than. And don't @ me with he hasn't won anything because he has or that he has lost games he shouldn't have( PLEASE name me ANY coach that hasn't). He is a good coach and is evolving into a great one. Bashing our coach at every opportunity in EVERY THREAD has gotten very old. Time to move on already. 

Like you, I am a Gus supporter and I upvoted your post. I agree with most of it except for the one phrase in bold. I think Gus does need to take care of the games he shouldn't lose, especially the ones where we have the clear talent advantage. He can't afford to do otherwise. He needs to do this if for no other reason than to take the heat off. When we play TAMU, LSU, UGA, bama every year, there isn't that much room for error in the other games and still get to 9 wins . 

[AuburnNTexas 7,300]

On 9/3/2019 at 2:31 PM, IronMan70 said:

So you think if Clemson was in the SEC West instead of the ACC that Dabo would still be putting up 13 wins a year which attracts all those 5* recruits. Now that is some BS right there. He may or may not beat Gus but he won't be getting 13 wins every year and an easy path to the playoffs.

I agree during that span LSU has had some great teams, so has Ole Miss and Miss. State plus Auburn and bama. Play a great game against LSU and beat them but get some key players banged up then next week have to play Auburn or bama and it is easy to lose 2 or 3 games in the SEC west. The physicality of the SEC West beats a team up.  There just aren't that many easy games. It is much harder to have to play at near your best week in and week out to win. 

[gravejd 3,304]

2 hours ago, Auctoritas said:

You mean like covering up sexual assault or riding around on a motorcycle with an in-program mistress or paying players or covering up cheating or embezzlement of department funds or having a bunch of his players arrested or having a bunch of players in trouble but not doing anything about it or going 3-9 or 5-7 or whatever multiple years in a row or having the NCAA come down like a hammer and not cooperating or bringing discredit to the university or assaulting and abusing the players or having players actually die?

 

Or are you just talking about poor O Line play?

 

Seriously. Some of you people need to recalibrate. 

umm sure buddy. I mean what else could i be talking about other than poor OL play? 🙄

[DAG 34,553]

1 hour ago, Cardin Drake said:

The best way to improve our record for the next 20 years is to call BS on Missouri being in the SEC east.  We need to trade with them.  We'll double our appearances in the SEC title game.

Not going to change anything and is just a waste of time crying about it.

[keesler 5,943]

3 minutes ago, DAG said:

Not going to change anything and is just a waste of time crying about it.

Exactly!  Why would Mizzou want to move to the West and make their road twice as hard?  Why would Tennessee/USC/Kentucky want to have to play Auburn every year instead of Mizzou?  

[steeleagle 2,945]

56 minutes ago, IronMan70 said:

Like you, I am a Gus supporter and I upvoted your post. I agree with most of it except for the one phrase I bolded. I think Gus does need to take care of the games he shouldn't lose, especially the ones where we have the clear talent advantage. He can't afford it. He needs to do this if for no other reason than to take the heat off. When we play TAMU, LSU, UGA, bama every year, there isn't that much room for error in the other games to get to 9 wins . 

The key to Gus keeping our teams in contention for the SEC Champ and possibly the playoffs, is to try and 'at least' split w/ those 4 upper level teams. He tends to win our out of conference games (4), and the other 3 in our division (MSU, OM, Ark),  giving him 7 wins. To get to 9+ that will allow him to keep his job, but more importantly to give us chance at those 2 championships(SEC, NC), he also has to be at least .500 w/ GA and Alabama.  And in some years take 3 out of 4 against them to get us in the playoffs.

The problem is Malzahn is not doing that. He has a losing record against LSU, GA, and Alabama. He hovers around 7-8 wins(except in 2017 and 2013). The reason? In most of those games, his offense sputters.

So what we hope to see is his offense improve, evolve, and push the right buttons to win consistently this year. 

[Auctoritas 2,894]

1 hour ago, gravejd said:

umm sure buddy. I mean what else could i be talking about other than poor OL play? 🙄

I dunno, man, you're the one talking about fireable offenses without giving any context. Say what you will about the inconsistency (remembering that, while we'd like high level consistency, you also can be like TN and consistently awful), but I don't think anyone's got a lot of gripes about Gus other than his game day skills.

[TigerHorn 1,370]

1 hour ago, steeleagle said:

The key to Gus keeping our teams in contention for the SEC Champ and possibly the playoffs, is to try and 'at least' split w/ those 4 upper level teams. He tends to win our out of conference games (4), and the other 3 in our division (MSU, OM, Ark),  giving him 7 wins. To get to 9+ that will allow him to keep his job, but more importantly to give us chance at those 2 championships(SEC, NC), he also has to be at least .500 w/ GA and Alabama.  And in some years take 3 out of 4 against them to get us in the playoffs.

The problem is Malzahn is not doing that. He has a losing record against LSU, GA, and Alabama. He hovers around 7-8 wins(except in 2017 and 2013). The reason? In most of those games, his offense sputters.

So what we hope to see is his offense improve, evolve, and push the right buttons to win consistently this year. 

OK, so who exactly has gone .500 vs Saban, playing him every year? Their recruiting advantage is just too overwhelming even without the SEC Office making sure every questionable call goes their way. As someone said last weekend, Joey's TD vs Oregon would have been ruled a fumble vs bammer. Kirby now appears to have most of the same advantages at UGA. I'd like to see a better record vs them, but he has more wins against bammer than any coach in the league right now. 

WRT to LSU, we've had a losing record against them since they became a power again. Winning in Red Stick has been the bane of every AU coach since. From messing with our kicker's head to no AC on the sidelines, they pull something dirty every danged year down there. Responding to that has to be on the AD, and then we might start to even out the record. 

[Auctoritas 2,894]

2 hours ago, Tiger said:

IMO he deserves tonsssss of credit for keeping AU out of a negative light and bringing in high character kids who represent the university well. That was one of his objectives when he was hired and he has 100% accomplished this. I think even the biggest Gus hater on here would give him that. I mean things were bad. Armed robberies, failed drug tests going unpunished, Chizik had to hire a damn independent security team if I'm not mistaken to make sure guys were following curfew ugh. Thankfully those days are long gone.

I just personally don't think that that should be the most important thing when it comes to saving his job though. If you lose enough the off-field good stuff goes out the window.  Just like at most places, if you win enough the bad off-field stuff also goes out the window. So that seems to be on a sliding scale. UGA fans will be less forgiving of Kirby's players getting in trouble if he starts turning in 8 win seasons, for example. 

I agree 1 game shouldn't be a fireable offense. But I can see how, to some people, Gus has used up all his rope and 1 game could make someone fall on one side of the fence or the other. And 1 game in particular shouldn't decide his job status, but going .500 vs Miss State over a 6 year period is definitely fireable at a place like Auburn JMO. Particularly if that record against MSU in the midst of a string of 8 wins (or fewer) seasons. If we're saying what portion of his job is on-field performance vs off-field? I'd say outcomes on Saturday is 80% of what dictates his job security. The other stuff either buys him more time or gets him canned quicker. With how well he's done outside of Saturdays he had bought himself some time and an ill-timed contract extension truly saved him last year. 

It feels good to be proud of the men that Gus molds. But ultimately it doesn't excuse him from handing in subpar W/L records. 

What portion would you say Saturdays make up for his job security?

I don't disagree with anything you say.

Saturdays or a Saturday? Again, my issue was with the characterization that 1 game - in any coach - should be a thing that gets a coach fired.

My personal feeling is that it is 65/35, with the caveat that we are talking about over a LONG time AND that the off-the-field stuff ought to translate into improvement. I realize that's probably lower than other people, but that's also a reasonable disagreement to have. The "fireable offenses" thing though...that just grinds my gears. You don't fire a coach in knee-jerk reactions because of an outcome you don't like. There's a bigger picture.

The question of what a subpar W/L record is is another question. My personal (unpopular opinion): I happen to think that a 65/35 W/L is, ironically, also what buys another season (that's 8-4) so long as everything else is going well. For a time, at least. Would I like more wins? heck yes. I'd rather go undefeated every year, or at least 9-3 or 10-2 and ruin Bama or UGAs season.

I think we are almost there. I honestly do.
 

[AU-24 3,128]

2 hours ago, keesler said:

I don't know if "that" guy is out there either.  At some point a program has to choose how much longer they're willing to wait on a staff to get over this hump of mediocrity.  Is it another year or two, or wait around until the buy-out becomes something less obscene?

As an alum with 2 kids currently at AU, I can't think of anything worse that watching a rabid fan base lower expectations to the point where if AU only loses 3-4 games this year many fans will accept it as long as the team "looks competitive" in the losses.  

 

 

I totally understand;  best of luck to your kids!!