Churches are fuming over being taxed by Republicans and Trump

[aubiefifty 18,117]

dailykos.com

Churches are fuming over being taxed by Republicans and Trump

Rmuse   Community

9-11 minutes

Churches say being taxed is absurd.

There is no reason whatsoever to celebrate America these days; the concept of good news has all but vanished. In fact, it is highly likely that a fair number of Americans are mourning the demise of their nation as it existed for 239 years and see nothing but the relentless advance of corporate fascism and a bloodless theocratic coup d’état on the near horizon; many observers, including this author, believe the theocrats have taken over already. These are seriously bad days for America as a nation, and devastating for any citizen that embraced a secular democracy with liberties and freedom for all Americans regardless of race, religious affliction, or gender.

There was a bit of news recently that, although not necessarily good, is certainly worth celebrating if for no other reason than the religious right is up in arms over what they regard as an attack on their religious freedom. In addition, even more reason to marvel is that the attack came at the hands of Congressional Republicans and the religious right’s messianic hero Dumb Don Trump. This particular attack entails a little known “reform” in Trump’s highly touted GOP tax legislation that includes a first ever tax on churches and other non-profits. It is a brief “good time” moment in what is now a horrifically hideous country run by a fascist pig with theocrats and white supremacists supporting his regime.

To remark that the various church leaders are dumbfounded and irate over being taxed would be a monumental understatement. Literally hundreds of church leaders are struggling to comprehend why Republicans would dare treat them like every other American and business, and why their Republican facilitators stabbed them in the back in secret. Actually, since the GOP tax reform legislation was conceived and crafted in secret by the Heritage Foundation, and Republicans voted en masse to enrich the wealthy and corporations without even perusing that legislation, few in Congress were aware of the tax on “the church.”

However, this “tax outrage” is not the kind of tax regular people bemoan; it is a minor tax on the various freebies church and some non-profit organization’s employees receive. Still, the concept of religious organizations being required to contribute anything in the way of “a tax” has infuriated church leaders who vehemently insist that their tax exemption is “sacrosanct,” and non-negotiable.

Subsequently, over 600 churches, thus far, signed a petition demanding that Republicans repeal the tax immediately; because regardless what Jeff Sessions says about the Christian bible command to obey the government, the faithful say they are “exempt” from that particular bible passage like they are exempt from contributing anything of value to America.

The gist of the “hidden tax atrocity” simply requires “churches, hospitals, and other historically tax-exempt organizations to begin paying a 21 percent tax on some types of fringe benefits they provide their employees.”

As a seasonal tax professional and former minister, this author is well-acquainted with the ridiculous number of “tax-free benefits” church employees, especially members of the clergy, receive because they are “blessed” to live in a country that gives churches tens of billions annually as “theocratic welfare.”  

The new tax will seem like more “secular persecution” to churches and their employees who are accustomed to special treatment due to their “deeply held faith.” Expecting them to pay taxes like their bible commands is an abomination, and is perceived as the secular government punishing them. It is irrelevant that the “persecution” came at the hands of Republicans and Trump; Trump’s evangelicals, in particular, are beyond incensed. They are not satisfied that the same tax bill “persecuting” them with a small tax also grants them the unconstitutional and unconditional freedom to campaign from the pulpit with the Trump government’s blessings.

That perceived persecution has incited over 600 churches, and some other greedy groups, to sign a petition demanding the Republicans’ tax be repealed.  The churches claim they “don’t need the hassle” of taxes or interacting with the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) or their silly tax forms. The vice president of government relations at the National Association of Evangelicals, an umbrella group of evangelical organizations, Galen Carey said:

“There’s going to be huge headaches. The cost of compliance, especially for churches that have small staffs or maybe volunteer accountants and bookkeepers — we don’t need this kind of hassle.”

It is an affront to decency that Carey has the temerity to complain about “the cost” of obeying his evangelical bible’s command to pay taxes. It is a particularly egregious remark since churches receive tens-of-billions of free taxpayer dollars annually due to being exempt from taxation. Moreover, since Bush’s “faith-based initiatives,” they receive billions of taxpayer dollars in direct payments from the federal government because “faith.”

The Jewish Federations of North America (JFNA) is joining evangelicals in complaining that their group may face a tax bill this year because of the Republican tax reform that Trump celebrated signing. The senior tax policy counsel for the group, Steven Woolf, predicted the faithful would force Congress and the Treasury to “stop the outrage.” Woolf said:

“A lot of people are just finding out about it and the more people find out about it, the more pressure there will be on Treasury and Congress to either delay implementation or consider changing this.”  

At least one Republican lawmaker is now promising to rescind the tax he just celebrated voting for because god - or some related nonsense. As previously mentioned, many groups are beyond outraged that they are expected to adhere to Jeff Sessions’ favorite scripture, Romans 13, that commands abject obedience to the government. The churches are particularly aggrieved because Republicans failed to get clearance from the religious right before passing tax reform that Trump signed. According to the crybaby chairperson of the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability, some malcontent named Mike Batts:

“What we’re talking about is an income tax on the church. It's absurd. The whole idea of tax exemption for nonprofit organizations that are doing charitable, religious and educational work is for them not to be on the same playing field when it comes to taxes, in order to incentivize the good work they do to make our society better.”

If Batts wasn’t an entitled religious cretin, he would understand that millions of Americans in jobs that “make our society better,” such as law enforcement, healthcare, education, disaster relief and the military pay taxes on all their earnings and employee benefits; and they don’t complain that they don’t understand how to do taxes.

Many of the 600 and counting churches demanding the tax’s abolition say  they are confused over how exactly the tax is supposed to work - because they have been exempt unlike the rest of the population. Churches want to know how they are supposed to calculate the value of “freebies” they include as compensation for their employees. Some openly wonder if the garages provided as part of clergy residences are now taxable, or if they can still “double dip” and avoid paying their fair share of tax.

It is worth reiterating ad nauseam that religious organizations (churches et al) already receive at least $82.5 billion annually from taxpayers, and that 2013 amount did not include the billions in faith-based initiative funding from taxpayers. In a fair country with a secular Constitution, churches would not be tax exempt; it is probably why the immutable word of god and Jesus in the Christian’s holy bible commands the religion’s adherents to pay taxes.

Although this is not a major story among the daily revelations that America is lurching towards an evangelical theocracy with a corrupt fascist incrementally decimating everything decent about America, it is worth enjoying for a minute. Of course the “faithful” will force Republicans to abolish the tax, and they will continue using Republicans to take complete control of all facets of the government. They will succeed, in large part, due to a curious fear among Americans, the media and Democrats of “offending” the faithful by resisting their bloodless coup d’état.

It is little consolation, but for people devoted to America as a secular representative democracy, they now have an “event” to look back on fondly and they had better enjoy it. It is the last time the religious will ever be “inconvenienced” by the government because it is likely there will never be a law passed without the express consent of the religious right theocrats running America.  

[AU64 10,122]

Dailykos…...does anyone actually believe that stuff they publish?   The author strikes me as a person who should not be let out without someone to keep an eye on him. ….could be the anti-Alex Jones.....or Van Jones....I keep getting them mixed up. 

[augolf1716 21,939]

Churches fuming is not a good thing

[SaltyTiger 8,527]

just got our church bulletin. President Trump is still on our prayer list.

[aubiefifty 18,117]

16 hours ago, SaltyTiger said:

just got our church bulletin. President Trump is still on our prayer list.

to be honest trump should still be on the prayer list even if he did do it. and i might have gotten snookered bu thee was more than one outlet reporting it best i can remember.

[AU64 10,122]

For long as  I can remember, at our little UMC church our country's leaders have been on our prayer list or mentioned in our corporate prayer by the pastor....and that has included whomever happened to be president at the time.....including Bush, Obama and now Trump.     

Meanwhile, IMO,  the Dailykos is even less reliable than  Huffington  as a source of news.  Also for as long as I can remember, there have been groups or organizations arguing for churches to lose their tax exempt status...…which I'm guessing, it that were to occur, pretty soon the 501c3 designation would likely disappear for many quasi-religious or non-religious organizations. …..the slippery slope maybe...  .  

Yet, I don't know many people who donate to churches in order to get a tax deduction but the tax exempt status of our church does allow our money for our mission efforts to go further. 

[aubiefifty 18,117]

if churches are doing right let them alone. in anniston which is close to where i live they sure give out a lot of food to those in desperate need. but if they have huge mansions and fleets of private jets i think they take advantage of their church members and the feds.

[AU64 10,122]

21 minutes ago, aubiefifty said:

if churches are doing right let them alone. in anniston which is close to where i live they sure give out a lot of food to those in desperate need. but if they have huge mansions and fleets of private jets i think they take advantage of their church members and the feds.

Agree but I'm betting there are far more non-religious charities where the administrator take a disproportionate share of the revenue.  It's just us perhaps …and we are fairly generous...but we always make our disaster relief type donations through UMCOR where we know that  100% of the money received for a specific need will go to that need.     I expect other denominations have similar mission committees. 

There are a number of folks who rate charities on their expenses, etc. and that can be useful if you are being asked to support something you are not familiar with but if you mostly give to your local community needs (which we do) it's easier to know how responsible the leaders are with the money.

Summer "Feed a Kid" program in our community...a multi-church effort.......some of my friends... 

 

 

[kevon67 2,368]

9 minutes ago, AU64 said:

Agree but I'm betting there are far more non-religious charities where the administrator take a disproportionate share of the revenue.  It's just us perhaps …and we are fairly generous...but we always make our disaster relief type donations through UMCOR where we know that  100% of the money received for a specific need will go to that need.     I expect other denominations have similar mission committees. 

There are a number of folks who rate charities on their expenses, etc. and that can be useful if you are being asked to support something you are not familiar with but if you mostly give to your local community needs (which we do) it's easier to know how responsible the leaders are with the money.

Summer "Feed a Kid" program in our community...a multi-church effort.......some of my friends... 

 

 

Lol Alex Jones would claim photo is backstage at Dio concert?

[TitanTiger 21,071]

On 7/3/2018 at 7:44 PM, AU64 said:

Dailykos…...does anyone actually believe that stuff they publish?   The author strikes me as a person who should not be let out without someone to keep an eye on him. ….could be the anti-Alex Jones.....or Van Jones....I keep getting them mixed up. 

Daily Kos or not, the issue is real.   A cursory Google search would have told you that, even if you refuse to even engage a subject when it doesn't come from one of your ritually pure sources.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/06/26/republican-tax-law-churches-employees-670362

http://www.newsweek.com/tax-reform-bill-fringe-benefits-hurts-nonprofits-churches-colleges-hospitals-996101

http://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2018/june/churches-slapped-with-shocking-new-taxes-heres-what-you-can-do-to-stop-it

https://www.annistonstar.com/news/state/trump-tax-provision-on-churches-other-nonprofits-catches-locals-off/article_bf50a40c-7cb0-11e8-b5af-c3b8c2f7b68c.html

 

[AU64 10,122]

7 minutes ago, TitanTiger said:

Daily Kos or not, the issue is real.   A cursory Google search would have told you that if you refuse to even engage if it doesn't come from one of your ritually pure sources.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/06/26/republican-tax-law-churches-employees-670362

http://www.newsweek.com/tax-reform-bill-fringe-benefits-hurts-nonprofits-churches-colleges-hospitals-996101

http://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2018/june/churches-slapped-with-shocking-new-taxes-heres-what-you-can-do-to-stop-it

https://www.annistonstar.com/news/state/trump-tax-provision-on-churches-other-nonprofits-catches-locals-off/article_bf50a40c-7cb0-11e8-b5af-c3b8c2f7b68c.html

 

the OP says that churches are fuming and I really wonder about that.      I'm on a number of committees in our church, Finance included and have never heard this issue mentioned anywhere in the United Methodist Church..   As noted in a couple pieces, it would make accounting more complex trying to separate out taxable items. we are a small church and other than the pastor, our employees pay FICA and income taxes just like everyone one else and he is considered "self employed" and pays his own taxes.   Our biggest tax break is on property taxes.   And of course most educated people know that the church (like corporations) would not pay the taxes....the money would just come out of the income of the employees and from the money spent on church missions and programs.   

Governments are always looking for another source of income and it's better if the subjects of a tax are not able to make an effective protest.   Sounds like a gift to us from House Leader Ryan on his way out the door....or some staffer who was able to sneak the language into the bill in such a way as the impact was not realized.  

But churches "fuming"....I don't think so..

[AUDub 11,784]

18 hours ago, kevon67 said:

Lol Alex Jones would claim photo is backstage at Dio concert?

Oh, the nostalgia.

*Puts on Holy Diver*

Damn it. Now I need to go roll up a new D&D character.

[GiveEmElle 1,559]

19 hours ago, aubiefifty said:

if churches are doing right let them alone. in anniston which is close to where i live they sure give out a lot of food to those in desperate need. but if they have huge mansions and fleets of private jets i think they take advantage of their church members and the feds.

When you have men like John Hagee, Kenneth Copeland and Joel Osteen who  garner great wealth on the back of a church’s tax exempt status, it makes sense to do away with it. But not every church is a mega church, so this hurts your smaller churches who are actually doing God’s work in their communities. Picking and choosing which churches to tax is problematic and could be a basis for discrimination. So it’s all or nothing. And as much as I loathe those who preach for filthy lucre sake, I’m going with not taxing the church at all. But the irony of this current news isn’t lost on me. Sometimes you get what you vote for. On the other hand, the cynic in me wonders if this is a small part of a bigger plan to let churches have a greater political voice through campaign contributions. 

[TitanTiger 21,071]

1 hour ago, AU64 said:

the OP says that churches are fuming and I really wonder about that.

Let's not play semantics games to obfuscate the issue.  Whether you call it "fuming", "upset", "shocked", "disappointed", "outraged", the sentiment remains the same.  They aren't happy about it.  One of the links above is from CBN (Christian Broadcasting Network).  At the top of the article they have a link to a petition trying to get this tax provision overturned. 

 

1 hour ago, AU64 said:

I'm on a number of committees in our church, Finance included and have never heard this issue mentioned anywhere in the United Methodist Church..   As noted in a couple pieces, it would make accounting more complex trying to separate out taxable items. we are a small church and other than the pastor, our employees pay FICA and income taxes just like everyone one else and he is considered "self employed" and pays his own taxes.   Our biggest tax break is on property taxes.   And of course most educated people know that the church (like corporations) would not pay the taxes....the money would just come out of the income of the employees and from the money spent on church missions and programs.

Governments are always looking for another source of income and it's better if the subjects of a tax are not able to make an effective protest.   Sounds like a gift to us from House Leader Ryan on his way out the door....or some staffer who was able to sneak the language into the bill in such a way as the impact was not realized.  

But churches "fuming"....I don't think so..

Whether your little church in Butthump, NC understands it or is talking about it isn't really a rebuttal.  It's going to cost many churches and non-profits (or pastors if they choose to just pass the tax break loss on to them) a lot of money unexpectedly.  You're arguing over how mad they are about it like that's the point.  It's a significant tax increase that will impact smaller churches and non-profits especially hard.  You might want to speak up in a few of your UMC committees to make sure your finance folks are aware of this change and have accounted for the impact of it.  Maybe your church doesn't have a lot invested in the types of benefits that are targeted here and that's why they aren't talking about it much.  That doesn't change the fact that it affects a ton of other churches and non-profits.

[triangletiger 1,599]

I am not well-versed on this particular aspect of the tax bill, but the author of the article in the OP comes across as virulently anti-religious and paranoid of the impending theocratic 'bloodless coup d'etat'.  Does anybody really believe that our government is on the verge of being taken over by the religious?  If anything, things seem to be moving in the opposite direction (and have been for the last 50+ years).

[AU64 10,122]

1 hour ago, TitanTiger said:

Let's not play semantics games to obfuscate the issue.  Whether you call it "fuming", "upset", "shocked", "disappointed", "outraged", the sentiment remains the same.  They aren't happy about it.  One of the links above is from CBN (Christian Broadcasting Network).  At the top of the article they have a link to a petition trying to get this tax provision overturned. 

 

Whether your little church in Butthump, NC understands it or is talking about it isn't really a rebuttal.  It's going to cost many churches and non-profits (or pastors if they choose to just pass the tax break loss on to them) a lot of money unexpectedly.  You're arguing over how mad they are about it like that's the point.  It's a significant tax increase that will impact smaller churches and non-profits especially hard.  You might want to speak up in a few of your UMC committees to make sure your finance folks are aware of this change and have accounted for the impact of it.  Maybe your church doesn't have a lot invested in the types of benefits that are targeted here and that's why they aren't talking about it much.  That doesn't change the fact that it affects a ton of other churches and non-profits.

UMC is a connectional church and the "home office' keeps us apprised, even in Butthump, NC.... of things that might affect us and the only issue thus far has been the change in the standard deduction and whether fewer people being able to deduct charitable donations might affect their giving.  Nobody knows and on the other hand, if folks have more disposable income they might be more generous to churches and other charitable organizations.  

Other than at the top of heap...the top 1% perhaps,  there is not much evidence that people donate just to get a tax deduction.     I can see that big foundations with high salaries and lots of benefit might be concerned …..but they ought to be happy over the changes in the tax law of the deductibility from IRAs and 401ks and the general trend of the economy which should enable them to increase the earnings of their foundations. 

And not playing the semantics game....but in my view, none of the descriptions you mention are accurate....

[TitanTiger 21,071]

5 minutes ago, AU64 said:

UMC is a connectional church and the "home office' keeps us apprised, even in Butthump, NC.... of things that might affect us and the only issue thus far has been the change in the standard deduction and whether fewer people being able to deduct charitable donations might affect their giving.  Nobody knows and on the other hand, if folks have more disposable income they might be more generous to churches and other charitable organizations.  

Other than at the top of heap...the top 1% perhaps,  there is not much evidence that people donate just to get a tax deduction.     I can see that big foundations with high salaries and lots of benefit might be concerned …..but they ought to be happy over the changes in the tax law of the deductibility from IRAs and 401ks and the general trend of the economy which should enable them to increase the earnings of their foundations. 

And not playing the semantics game....but in my view, none of the descriptions you mention are accurate....

Ok.  But there's you and your church/denomination, and then there are media outlets from the Christian and Uber-conservative (CBN), to the small town Alabama newspaper (Anniston Star) to the more liberal Newsweek and Politico saying this isn't small potatoes for a lot of churches and non-profits.  It doesn't take much going out on a limb to surmise that your anecdote might not be the best gauge on the law's impact.

[TitanTiger 21,071]

1 hour ago, triangletiger said:

I am not well-versed on this particular aspect of the tax bill, but the author of the article in the OP comes across as virulently anti-religious and paranoid of the impending theocratic 'bloodless coup d'etat'.  Does anybody really believe that our government is on the verge of being taken over by the religious?  If anything, things seem to be moving in the opposite direction (and have been for the last 50+ years).

It's the Daily Kos.  You sort of know what you're dealing with and take with a grain of salt accordingly.  Which is why I pointed out that this isn't just some tempest in a teapot being fomented by an uber-liberal rag.  It's a real issue and the issue is being raised as a significant one across the political and religious spectrum.

[triangletiger 1,599]

2 hours ago, TitanTiger said:

It's the Daily Kos.  You sort of know what you're dealing with and take with a grain of salt accordingly.  Which is why I pointed out that this isn't just some tempest in a teapot being fomented by an uber-liberal rag.  It's a real issue and the issue is being raised as a significant one across the political and religious spectrum.

OK.  His point would be better made if he toned down the anti-religious rhetoric (but I guess he may be preaching to the converted).  I heard something about this tax this morning on "The World and Everything In It" podcast, and it sounded as though this would be more of a concern for religious institutions or non-profits in urban locations that provide perks like subsidized parking for their staff.

 

[triangletiger 1,599]

Here's the transcript from the podcast report I heard this morning:

Quote

MARY REICHARD, HOST: It’s Thursday, the 5th of July, 2018.

Glad to have you along for today’s edition of The World and Everything in It. Good morning, I’m Mary Reichard.

NICK EICHER, HOST: And I’m Nick Eicher.

Last year, Republicans successfully passed a major overhaul to the U.S. tax code. It provided massive tax cuts to businesses and many employees saw fatter paychecks.

But six months after the law took effect, parts of the law that slipped by people, even lawmakers, are now coming to light. One example is a change to the church tax exemption.

REICHARD: You heard that right: Some churches might soon have to file tax returns. WORLD Radio’s Kristen Flavin has the story.

KRISTEN FLAVIN, REPORTER: The U.S. tax code has always classified churches as nonprofit organizations—meaning they don’t pay taxes. But a small, little-noticed change to the code now requires some churches and nonprofit organizations to begin filing taxes.

The law says churches, religious organizations, and other nonprofits need to begin paying a 21 percent tax on fringe benefits for employees. These fringe benefits include things like free parking and transportation.

Lawmakers say they made the change to level the playing field between nonprofits and for-profits.

CAREY: That line of thinking ignores the very obvious fact that for-profit and nonprofit organizations are different, and they’re not meant to be treated the same way.

Galen Carey is vice president of government relations for the National Association of Evangelicals. It represents 45-thousand local churches.

CAREY: That’s the whole point of having a not-for-profit status is so that they can be treated differently. And then recall as well that in the tax cut bill for-profit businesses received a hefty tax cut. Well, churches didn’t receive any tax cuts because we don’t pay tax.

In addition to the cost of the tax, many churches will incur additional expenses in order to hire accountants or tax advisers to help determine their obligation to the IRS.

Chet Lilly is Chief Operating Officer of PCA Retirement and Benefits Incorporation. He says his organization has been reading through the law and consulting experts so they know how to advise churches searching for answers.

Lilly says churches are baffled as to why Congress would begin imposing taxes.

LILLY: People have asked us: Do we have to do this? Are they after churches? Is this a shot across the bow? We don’t know the motivation for this being put into law other than Congress was looking for revenue.

Carey says the law is also unclear.

CAREY: Every church in America or most churches have a parking lot, does that mean that everyone, every employee who parks in that lot is now receiving a benefit even though the parking lot is generally free to the public?

Lilly says the way he understands the law, it will only apply to churches who have to pay for things like bus tickets or parking expenses employees incur on the job. If that’s the case, very few churches would fit the profile.

LILLY: So for example, a downtown church that’s in a parking deck that it’s a known quantity that parking is $10 or $15 or $20 a day, and they pay either all of it or half of it for the employees, that’s now going to be taxable at 21 percent. It is not a rural church that has a parking lot that everybody parks in.

Since the law went into effect in January, some churches are asking the IRS to waive any penalties or interest charges for late filing.

Churches and their advisers haven’t received regulations or guidelines for how much organizations should expect to pay.

CAREY: What’s for sure is that this is going to become an administrative and accounting nightmare for many churches who have never filed any tax forms because they’ve never been taxed before.

NAE is among the groups urging Congress to amend the law or clarify that the tax on churches and religious non-profits was unintended. Texas Congressman Michael Conaway recently filed legislation to kill the tax, but so far it has no cosponsors.

NAE’s Galen Carey is concerned that many churches may be financially vulnerable.

CAREY: The vast majority of churches probably aren’t even aware that this tax was included, because it wasn’t talked at all in the process of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act being debated and signed into law. Nobody said, “Oh, and by the way, we’re going to be starting for the first time now starting to tax churches.” So it’s something that was done without very clear public debate, and so I think that’s something that needs to be rectified.

In the meantime, churches have started signing petitions and urging members to call their representatives in Congress.

Reporting for WORLD Radio, I’m Kristen Flavin.

http://worldandeverything.org/2018/07/church-taxes/

[AU64 10,122]

4 hours ago, triangletiger said:

OK.  His point would be better made if he toned down the anti-religious rhetoric (but I guess he may be preaching to the converted).  I heard something about this tax this morning on "The World and Everything In It" podcast, and it sounded as though this would be more of a concern for religious institutions or non-profits in urban locations that provide perks like subsidized parking for their staff.

 

That could be:

But...parking has been a taxable perk for quite a while I think.   I used to have free parking at AU football games in the Business School.....but eventually got a letter advising that the IRS  had declared that my season parking pass had a tax value of $250 and I could either donate the $250 or  that the could no longer "give" me the pass as recognition of our financial support.   So for one or two games a year I usually attended,  I let the pass go and instead now rarely go to a home game because parking is such a hassle.   

Guess someone has to show that these "perks" actually have a market value ….like my parking pass.   Not sure what playing field someone is trying to level since it's rare for a non-profit to be in competition with a for profit organization where such a perk would be of value unless a bank was trying to find a way to take scarce parking spaces away from non-profits whose employees shared the same parking deck. 

We will never know of course, but would be interesting to find out who sneaked that little tidbit into the tax bill and who wanted it done....