QB development is good

[AUld fAUx@ 2,584]

3 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

I bet all this "Ghost in the Machine" talk made you thirsty to boot. 

Not just for breakfast anymore

[McLoofus 35,182]

1 minute ago, AUinTLoosa said:

Not just for breakfast anymore

[ToomersStreet 795]

Gus HAS NEVER taken a high school QB and done anything with them.  Even at Tulsa he inherited his quarterbacks. 

[Tiger 8,835]

I think some are confusing knowing how to utilize someone with actually developing. There are only 3 guys you can point to on the developmental front:

Nick Marshall

Jeremy Johnson

Sean White

 

Nick Marshall's stats improved from year to year 2 due to us throwing more. He improved some for sure but we were all hoping for a bigger improvement from year 1 to year 2. Did he actually become a better QUARTERBACK? I think he improved from snap 1 vs Washington State to final OT vs Wisconsin in the Outback Bowl but it seemed like he could've taken a bigger leap. Yes he had an amazing Iron Bowl and I am a huge NM fan. This is probably Gus' strongest case.

In regards to JJ, we all know the answer to that one.

 

In regards to Sean White he showed some improvement from year 1 to year 2 but his legacy is still in progress and we can't judge Gus on him yet, but injuries have gotten in the way for SW as well. I doubt he gets a chance here to finish his story at AU as starter unfortunately for him. 

 

Gus is/used to be a fantastic QB talent utilizer. Developer wise is still up in the air but leaning towards sub-par in that department at best. He can get you in a position to succeed but don't bank on him making you much better than you already are -- I hope with the addition of CCL our QBs make tons of strides and makes me shut up about this

 

[ToomersStreet 795]

23 hours ago, lionheartkc said:

But... but... Gus and Rhett can't coach QBs.  I read it on a message board so it must be true...

Seriously, though.  GREAT article. 

I look at the proof and they can't.  But you know what KC let's assume the article is right and they can coach a QB.  Then they are apparently terrible at evaluating talent. Also that article doesn't explain Khiel Frazier, Wallace or Clintnt Mosely.  Nick Marshal didn't get any better in year two although Gus and Rhett made numerous claims about how mych he had improved and Auburn would not be a read-option team in 2014.

[oracle79 3,569]

27 minutes ago, Tiger said:

I think some are confusing knowing how to utilize someone with actually developing.

Gus is/used to be a fantastic QB talent utilizer. Developer wise is still up in the air but leaning towards sub-par in that department at best. He can get you in a position to succeed but don't bank on him making you much better than you already are -- I hope with the addition of CCL our QBs make tons of strides and makes me shut up about this

100% accurate.  The last two years, not so much, and I think that bears a direct correlation on SW's injury history.  SW should have been utilized similar to Chris Todd.  Instead, we keep a lot of zone read plays ala Nick Marshall.  How long do you think Chris Todd would have survived in the 2015/16 offenses.  I doubt he would have made it through the season healthy either.  Hopefully Coach CL can get back to utilizing the talent in the most productive way this coming year.

And I'll say it for the last time.  How many times has GM won 10 or more games at Auburn (in any capacity) without a QB rushing for 1000+ yards?  I'll hang up and listen.

[McLoofus 35,182]

43 minutes ago, Tiger said:

Gus is/used to be a fantastic QB talent utilizer. Developer wise is still up in the air but leaning towards sub-par in that department at best. He can get you in a position to succeed but don't bank on him making you much better than you already are -- I hope with the addition of CCL our QBs make tons of strides and makes me shut up about this

I lean pretty hard towards all of this. Very well stated. 

[Tiger Refuge 6,686]

2 hours ago, AUinTLoosa said:

 

Sorry – just can’t seem to help myself.

 

 

 

“Ghost in the machine” was originally penned by a philosopher in order to illustrate the logical flaw of Cartesian dualism, the separability of “mind” and the “matter” from which mind arises. We sort’a bent the term (as has been done before, e.g., see Arthur Clark and HAL) to refer to inexplicable, anomalous behavior of a previously and more generally well-behaved system. Better, more technically accurate terms in this sense might include “gremlin” (as used in early aviation) or “glitch” (early space program). Really doesn’t matter.

 

 

 

Fact is, observation of any anomaly inherently gives rise to differing viewpoints concerning reliability of the system. Clashes between “it’s usually worked” and “how do we know it’ll ever work again?”  do matter to those responsible for operation of the system, but arise naturally, and we shouldn’t mind such conflict. That can of worms is open.

 

 

 

Your advice of “nevermind” is well taken. If you don’t mind, I now retire to a beer. Lacking any Parish Brewing products, however, I’ll make do with my can of Pabst.

 

Like how some feel about CGM?

 

You should join us in the beer talky talk. 

 

Now y'all all got me to thinking about Founders...

[AUld fAUx@ 2,584]

1 minute ago, Tiger Refuge said:

Like how some feel about CGM?

 

You should join us in the beer talky talk. 

 

Now y'all all got me to thinking about Founders...

???

[looney 794]

@AUinTLoosa should change his avatar:

 

Systemic anomaly... and fluctuations in equations... and whatnot.

 

[AUld fAUx@ 2,584]

5 minutes ago, bryanlooney said:

@AUinTLoosa should change his avatar:

 

Systemic anomaly... and fluctuations in equations... and whatnot.

 

Flattered, honored, and all, but

seems inappropriate for an old student that still uses slide-rule technology.

[Tiger Refuge 6,686]

17 minutes ago, AUinTLoosa said:

???

 

[lionheartkc 6,150]

1 hour ago, ToomersStreet said:

I look at the proof and they can't.  But you know what KC let's assume the article is right and they can coach a QB.  Then they are apparently terrible at evaluating talent. Also that article doesn't explain Khiel Frazier, Wallace or Clintnt Mosely.  Nick Marshal didn't get any better in year two although Gus and Rhett made numerous claims about how mych he had improved and Auburn would not be a read-option team in 2014.

Again... yes and no... They are hit and miss at evaluating QBs, just like every other school out there. They evaluated Cam when only 1 other school wanted him. They evaluated Nick when he was an INT prone Juco QB who had only played DB in the SEC. They evaluated Sean BEFORE he won the Elite 11. They also correctly evaluated a lot of QBs we didn't get.  What they are bad at is closing on top QBs... mostly because Gus's offense is not a QB showcase.

Gus was gone before Frazier set foot on the field as a starter, and when he did, it was under an OC who was trying to force him to be a pocket passer behind an inferior O-Line. Loeffler failed Frazier, not Gus.

Wallace and Moseley were 3-star QBs that had no Power-5 offers outside of Auburn and were not expected to ever start. They were local Alabama boys who got offers to basically be back-ups.  Moseley was recruited literally last minute by Gus and Wallace was as Gus was walking out the door. Trotter was supposed to be the guy behind Cam, but Gus didn't recruit him, Tubbs did... and when Trotter was recruited, Tyrik Rollison was supposed to be the next big QB at Auburn, but he imploded off the field.

Nick got A LOT better in year 2. His passing numbers improved dramatically... and he's NOT a QB. He's a defensive back that Gus/Rhett coached into a National Championship game and a record setting offense. If he was a QB, he would have played QB at Georgia and would be playing it now.

Here's the thing the "Gus can't coach QBs" people don't seem to get, which the author pointed out plainly. Not everyone can make it as a SEC Quarterback.  No QB coach is going to be able to turn clay into gold, no matter how good they are. It's also VERY hard to see if high school potential is going to turn into college potential.  If it weren't than the Elite 11 would always be stars and bama would never have to start a freshman over 2 5-star recruits. Gus has had A LOT going against him every year.  You could put the best QB coach in the world in a situation where 1 QB is injured, 1 QB doesn't have it mentally, 1 was a failed experiment and 1 QB can't last the whole season without damaging his throwing arm and you would get the exact same result.

I still think recruiting Franklin was the wrong move, but if I wanted to take the time to dig into other SEC team's recruiting, I'm sure I can say the same about several of their players, too. 

[ToomersStreet 795]

45 minutes ago, lionheartkc said:

 1.  What they are bad at is closing on top QBs... mostly because Gus's offense is not a QB showcase.

2. You could put the best QB coach in the world in a situation where 1 QB is injured, 1 QB doesn't have it mentally, 1 was a failed experiment and 1 QB can't last the whole season without damaging his throwing arm and you would get the exact same result.

3. I still think recruiting Franklin was the wrong move, but if I wanted to take the time to dig into other SEC team's recruiting, I'm sure I can say the same about several of their players, too. 

1.  Not only the offense, but I have wondered if Gus's QB guru ban has also hurt recruiting at that position.

2.  That has been Gus's and Jacobs theme the last three years, they always have an excuse for not getting it done.  Three years of excuse's, and when you are being paid millions you should be producing results not excuses.  2014: oops the defense fell apart 2015: Oh no Jeremy didn't pan out, Roc Thomas didn't pan out and Robinson was benched for attitude 2016- injuries!!!! PLEASE IGNORE THE HORRIBLE PLAY CALLING IT WAS INJURIES NOT ROTATING 13 QB's IN A GAME IT WAS INJURIES

3. We agree 100% on Franklin.  I think he was brought in purely out of desperation

[lionheartkc 6,150]

11 minutes ago, ToomersStreet said:

1.  Not only the offense, but I have wondered if Gus's QB guru ban has also hurt recruiting at that position.

2.  That has been Gus's and Jacobs theme the last three years, they always have an excuse for not getting it done.  Three years of excuse's, and when you are being paid millions you should be producing results not excuses.  2014: oops the defense fell apart 2015: Oh no Jeremy didn't pan out, Roc Thomas didn't pan out and Robinson was benched for attitude 2016- injuries!!!! PLEASE IGNORE THE HORRIBLE PLAY CALLING IT WAS INJURIES NOT ROTATING 13 QB's IN A GAME IT WAS INJURIES

3. We agree 100% on Franklin.  I think he was brought in purely out of desperation

I don't know that outside QB coaching matters... Fisher has the same policy and look who he lands as QBs.

I get that people are upset that the offense wasn't cranking along, but the reality is, circumstances did actually lead to a no-win situation in 2015 and 2016. I firmly believe that no other coach, in the same position, would have done better. The one failure, which I know Gus is aware of, too, because he rectified it with this recruiting class, was not back-filling at QB when there were question marks. Assuming Queen would be fine was myopic. He should have recruited another body in 2015 and made a better effort in 2016 to land a quality second QB.

I still think there is a bigger story to the Franklin situation. I would believe it was desperation if no one else was left on the board, but that wasn't the case, and we passed on guys like Webb. I still wonder if he wasn't being directed on the kind of guy he was supposed to go get... or he could have just had a picture in his head and John matched it.

[McLoofus 35,182]

15 minutes ago, lionheartkc said:

I still think there is a bigger story to the Franklin situation. I would believe it was desperation if no one else was left on the board, but that wasn't the case, and we passed on guys like Webb. I still wonder if he wasn't being directed on the kind of guy he was supposed to go get... or he could have just had a picture in his head and John matched it.

We didn't pass on Webb, he passed on us. (Smart dude. And I'm not bagging on Gus when I say that- Webb threw 50 passes a game or something insane like that at Cal. He did what was right for him.) 

Evans was the guy we passed on, and passing him over for Franklin is indefensible. But Rhett saw Franklin ball out in one game and decided he was the savior. 

Gus and Rhett liked Franklin and wanted him to start over White. They missed badly. There is no grand conspiracy. They had a very good quarterback already and tried to give his job to a track star with extremely limited football skills (which sort of damages arguments in favor of their ability to evaluate and develop; instead of focusing on Sean- who looked about the same in his best games in 2016 as he did in 2015- they wasted their time and effort trying and failing to develop Franklin, who was never going to be a legit QB). No, most other SEC teams did not make this mistake at the QB position. Sure, they all recruited guys who weren't cut out to be SEC QBs, but they didn't recruit 3* athletes and beg them to take a qualified starter's job. It may not be an indictment of Gus overall as a coach, but he made a really big mistake. It's okay to say that. 

[lionheartkc 6,150]

Just now, McLoofus said:

We didn't pass on Webb, he passed on us. (Smart dude. And I'm not bagging on Gus when I say that- Webb threw 50 passes a game or something insane like that at Cal. He did what was right for him.) 

Evans was the guy we passed on, and passing him over for Franklin is indefensible. But Rhett saw Franklin ball out in one game and decided he was the savior. 

Gus and Rhett liked Franklin and wanted him to start over White. They missed badly. There is no grand conspiracy. They had a very good quarterback already and tried to give his job to a track star with extremely limited football skills (which sort of damages arguments in favor of their ability to evaluate and develop; instead of focusing on Sean- who looked about the same in his best games in 2016 as he did in 2015- they wasted their time and effort trying and failing to develop Franklin, who was never going to be a legit QB). No, most other SEC teams did not make this mistake at the QB position. Sure, they all recruited guys who weren't cut out to be SEC QBs, but they didn't recruit 3* athletes and beg them to take a qualified starter's job. It may not be an indictment of Gus overall as a coach, but he made a really big mistake. It's okay to say that. 

Everything I've read said Webb was interested and Gus said no.  Maybe you have inside knowledge that I don't.

Evans is who I was referring to when I said there were others still on the board when we took Franklin.  I do wonder if Gus got stars in his eyes from the #1 JUCO rating.

The only reason I continue to try to figure out the Franklin situation is that it totally doesn't fit Gus's usual patterns. Look at Jason Smith...even when he was desperate in 2015, he didn't give him a shot at QB, but then he wasted the whole off season trying to make Franklin work. Also, Gus won't play anyone who is a turnover risk, but again... total focus on Franklin. A couple of our semi-insiders have alluded to the fact that something about White rubbed Gus wrong and maybe that was the catalyst. Part of me still thinks he was told he had better start a dual-threat, if for no other reason than some of the people around here who have similar attitudes to the big money guys are all dual-threat or nothing.

Overall, you're right, he made a huge mistake.  The analyst in me just wants to figure out why.

[ToomersStreet 795]

26 minutes ago, lionheartkc said:

The only reason I continue to try to figure out the Franklin situation is that it totally doesn't fit Gus's usual patterns. Look at Jason Smith...even when he was desperate in 2015, he didn't give him a shot at QB, but then he wasted the whole off season trying to make Franklin work. Also, Gus won't play anyone who is a turnover risk, but again... total focus on Franklin. A couple of our semi-insiders have alluded to the fact that something about White rubbed Gus wrong and maybe that was the catalyst. Part of me still thinks he was told he had better start a dual-threat, if for no other reason than some of the people around here who have similar attitudes to the big money guys are all dual-threat or nothing.

Please expand on the highlighted portion.

[McLoofus 35,182]

Jason White wasn't recruited exclusively to play QB. He was told he'd get a shot and he did. But he was going up against Heisman candidate era-Jeremy Johnson and we were extremely shallow at the WR position at that time. He made the obvious choice for himself quickly. 

As for #1 JUCO ranking, just to make sure, Franklin was the #1 JUCO athlete. He had almost no offers as a QB. Even if Gus was told to start a DT QB, which I don't even remotely begin to believe, he should have at least, you know, chosen a quarterback. 

He made a mistake because he's still green as a head coach, he's been lacking in intestinal fortitude ever since JJ fell apart and he panicked. The Clemson game this year is a microcosm of Gus's mental state for the 2015 and 2016 seasons. I defended him repeatedly and quite loudly on here for 2015. No coach could have succeeded with the hand he was dealt. But he didn't react to the experience very well. Maybe it's because it was the first time things had ever gone that badly for him while he was the boss. That would make sense.

[lionheartkc 6,150]

Just now, ToomersStreet said:

Please expand on the highlighted portion.

I wish I could... all they say is Gus had/has issues with White.

[ToomersStreet 795]

Just now, lionheartkc said:

I wish I could... all they say is Gus had/has issues with White.

Not an acceptable answer!

[lionheartkc 6,150]

Just now, McLoofus said:

As for #1 JUCO ranking, just to make sure, Franklin was the #1 JUCO athlete. He had almost no offers as a QB. Even if Gus was told to start a DT QB, which I don't even remotely begin to believe, he should have at least, you know, chosen a quarterback. 

Smith and Franklin were both #1 JUCO athlete... notice a pattern? 

I totally agree with you that he should have gotten a QB... both years... and another one in 2014.

[lionheartkc 6,150]

2 minutes ago, McLoofus said:

Maybe it's because it was the first time things had ever gone that badly for him while he was the boss. That would make sense.

This is a very valid possibility.

[McLoofus 35,182]

Just now, ToomersStreet said:

Not an acceptable answer!

Just call it alleged maturity issues. The specifics aren't particularly important. 

[ToomersStreet 795]

Just now, McLoofus said:

Just call it alleged maturity issues. The specifics aren't particularly important. 

Its the off season  I need something