DeVos Confirmation

[bigbird 60,939]

26 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

How do you define and quantify that assertion?

How do I define PC? The inability to reasonably and bluntly discus real problems and address real situations and issues out of fear of being considered insensitive or uncaring.  If a kid in my class can't speak or read english, I can't say that they are falling behind because they can't speak English. I'm instructed to use more pictures when teaching so as to not make them feel bad about not speaking the language.  All our kids at my school are issued chromebooks and we're told to make most, if not all, assignments through Google classroom. However, during meetings about our implementation I can't bring up the fact that many of our students are too poor to have internet at home. I did once and was told that I needed to think about how they would feel if they knew we were discussing their finances and wasn't being supportive enough to their needs.  To me, especially in education, you need to be able to be direct and not tiptoe around certain issues. Now obviously one can be more gracious in how things are said, but avoiding problems or not addressing them fully due to the fear of making others uncomfortable is asinine.

[icanthearyou 4,468]

2 minutes ago, bigbird said:

How do I define PC? The inability to reasonably and bluntly discus real problems and address real situations and issues out of fear of being considered insensitive or uncaring.  If a kid in my class can't speak or read english, I can't say that they are falling behind because they can't speak English. I'm instructed to use more pictures when teaching so as to not make them feel bad about not speaking the language.  All our kids at my school are issued chromebooks and we're told to make most, if not all, assignments through Google classroom. However, during meetings about our implementation I can't bring up the fact that many of our students are too poor to have internet at home. I did once and was told that I needed to think about how they would feel if they knew we were discussing their finances and wasn't being supportive enough to their needs.  To me, especially in education, you need to be able to be direct and not tiptoe around certain issues. Now obviously one can be more gracious in how things are said, but avoiding problems or not addressing them fully due to the fear of making others uncomfortable is asinine.

Interesting.  Seems indifference to socio-economic condition is being replaced by simply ignoring socio-economic condition.  

[homersapien 12,226]

17 minutes ago, bigbird said:

How do I define PC? The inability to reasonably and bluntly discus real problems and address real situations and issues out of fear of being considered insensitive or uncaring.  If a kid in my class can't speak or read english, I can't say that they are falling behind because they can't speak English. I'm instructed to use more pictures when teaching so as to not make them feel bad about not speaking the language.  All our kids at my school are issued chromebooks and we're told to make most, if not all, assignments through Google classroom. However, during meetings about our implementation I can't bring up the fact that many of our students are too poor to have internet at home. I did once and was told that I needed to think about how they would feel if they knew we were discussing their finances and wasn't being supportive enough to their needs.  To me, especially in education, you need to be able to be direct and not tiptoe around certain issues. Now obviously one can be more gracious in how things are said, but avoiding problems or not addressing them fully due to the fear of making others uncomfortable is asinine.

Well, it's not my place to say it, but you need to push back on that sort of response.  Maybe you can make a difference.

And not to change the subject, but this reveals another issue about internet access.  Countries that provide internet access like we provide electricity will do better in education.

[bigbird 60,939]

1 minute ago, icanthearyou said:

Interesting.  Seems indifference to socio-economic condition is being replaced by simply ignoring socio-economic condition.  

That's a very good way to think of it. Its like that bully in elementary school no one wanted to make eye contact with. 

[bigbird 60,939]

1 minute ago, homersapien said:

Well, it's not my place to say it, but you need to push back on that sort of response.  Maybe you can make a difference.

Oh I do! I'm known to be very direct. Unabashed, but not curt.

[homersapien 12,226]

1 minute ago, bigbird said:

Oh I do! I'm known to be very direct. Unabashed, but not curt.

Good!

As a teacher, you play a very important role in our society and our future.  

[bigbird 60,939]

2 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Good!

As a teacher, you play a very important role in our society and our future.  

Scary ain't it!

[WDavE 332]

38 minutes ago, homersapien said:

You supporters of DeVos have no idea of what you are supporting.

But then, you support Trump also. 

You may bee correct but, we have seen what the status quo has brought about.

Four years from now you'll get another shot.

 

[AuburnNTexas 7,315]

38 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Well the main reason is DeVos fought such accountability measures:

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/12/us/politics/betsy-devos-how-trumps-education-nominee-bent-detroit-to-her-will-on-charter-schools.html?_r=0

Few disagreed that schools in Detroit were a mess: a chaotic mix of charters and traditional public schools, the worst-performing in the nation.

So city leaders across the political spectrum agreed on a fix, with legislation to provide oversight and set standards on how to open schools and close bad ones.

But the bill died without even getting a final vote. And the person most influential in killing it is now President-elect Donald J. Trump’s nominee to oversee the nation’s public schools, Betsy DeVos.

Her resistance to the legislation last spring is a window into Ms. DeVos’s philosophy and what she might bring to the fierce and often partisan debate about public education across the country, and in particular, the roles of choice and charter schools.....

Ms. DeVos and her husband had lobbied hard for the state law that established charter schools in 1994. It allowed an unusually large number of organizations to start charter schools, which are publicly funded but privately run. But it created little oversight.

Even charter school supporters now criticize Detroit as one of the most unregulated markets in the country. About 80 percent of the state’s charters are operated for profit, far higher than anywhere else.......

But the provision that proved most controversial to the DeVoses would have established a Detroit Education Commission, appointed by the mayor. With three members from charter schools, three from the traditional public schools and one an expert in educational accountability, the commission was to come up with an A-to-F grading system for all schools, and evaluate which neighborhoods in the city most needed schools.

School operators that earned below an A or B could not expand without the commission’s signing off on their location. Schools that earned an F three years in a row could be closed.

Ms. DeVos and her husband wrote legislators urging them to reject any legislation that included the commission. Why, they argued, should residents have choice in where they shop for food and travel, but not in schools? She wrote a Detroit News op-ed arguing to “retire” Detroit Public Schools and “liberate all students” to use tax dollars to attend public or charter schools of their choice.

Leaders of 20 charter schools in Detroit, including some of the highest-performing, made a last-ditch effort to urge the Legislature to adopt the commission. “We have to be looking at every possible way to expand the choices and the opportunities in the neighborhoods for families,” Clark Durant, a onetime Republican candidate for the United States Senate and the co-founder of a network of schools, said at a news conference alongside Mayor Mike Duggan. “And I believe this is the beginning of that effort.”

The legislation passed the State Senate. But in the House of Representatives, support fell away, as leaders of the Republican caucus reminded the members of how much financial support the DeVoses could withhold.

They warned that the DeVoses would finance primary challenges against Republicans who defied her, as they had done to one who voted against the bill to lift the cap on charter schools five years earlier.

The DeVoses, said Representative Dave Pagel, a Republican who supported the commission, “made arguments that were strongly heard, and they prevailed.”

Another Republican, declining to comment for fear of alienating Ms. DeVos when she is poised to become a cabinet secretary, sent a link to an article detailing the DeVoses’ financial contributions to Republicans after the vote, saying it explained all there was to explain.

I agree with most of what you said about Devos you basically just supported what I said. I like the idea of Charter Schools but they need to be accountable. I like the idea of Charter schools and school choice but I don't think they are a panacea. Like to many appointments made by both sides of the aisle political influence ($) is what is behind to many appointments.  I would have preferred somebody who likes Charter Schools and Pro- School Choice with a much better background in education as even if they help we also need to improve our Public shools and most of that occurs at the local level.

[homersapien 12,226]

6 minutes ago, WDavE said:

You may bee correct but, we have seen what the status quo has brought about.

Four years from now you'll get another shot.

 

Explain how DeVos is going to improve education by opposing performance standards?

 

[homersapien 12,226]

7 minutes ago, AuburnNTexas said:

I agree with most of what you said about Devos you basically just supported what I said. I like the idea of Charter Schools but they need to be accountable. I like the idea of Charter schools and school choice but I don't think they are a panacea. Like to many appointments made by both sides of the aisle political influence ($) is what is behind to many appointments.  I would have preferred somebody who likes Charter Schools and Pro- School Choice with a much better background in education as even if they help we also need to improve our Public shools and most of that occurs at the local level.

Which is usually overlooked in these types of discussions.

[icanthearyou 4,468]

Just now, bigbird said:

That's a very good way to think of it. Its like that bully in elementary school no one wanted to make eye contact with. 

The world has changed.  Our educational system must fundamentally change. The generalized method is no longer suitable for the specialized world.  

Maybe one day, we will stop looking for a political answer and, work together to make the practical, fundamental changes necessary.

In the current political climate, we can not solve problems.  

 

 

 

[icanthearyou 4,468]

21 minutes ago, WDavE said:

You may bee correct but, we have seen what the status quo has brought about.

Four years from now you'll get another shot.

 

Exactly what I fear.  As long as politics is about division, we have no hope of achieving real results.  The political implications are more important than the real world implications.

The idea that right-wing or, left-wing politicians are going to solve this problem by invoking their ideological perfection, seems absurd.

One day, I hope, the left and right will work together for the country again.  Watching them work against one another at the expense and demise of the country is becoming depressing.

[bigbird 60,939]

29 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

The world has changed.  Our educational system must fundamentally change. The generalized method is no longer suitable for the specialized world.  

Maybe one day, we will stop looking for a political answer and, work together to make the practical, fundamental changes necessary.

In the current political climate, we can not solve problems.  

 

 

 

The biggest change that could be made that would have the absolute largest return is to hold students accountable for their education.

Day 1 of my classes I tell my students, "I don't care if they pass or fail. I don't care if they listen, take notes, study, or do homework. Its their choice. However, with all choices, there are consequences. Good choices get rewarded and bad choices get punished. In the end whether they pass or fail is there choice. My class is easy to pass but just as equally easy to fail."

It takes a few weeks to grasp, but they quickly realize I don't mind failing them if they don't do anything. The first 9 week grades are low, but the other three 9-week periods I usually only have A's and a handful of B's and C's.  Kids, most of the time, strive to reach the bar you set for them.

[homersapien 12,226]

10 hours ago, bigbird said:

The biggest change that could be made that would have the absolute largest return is to hold students accountable for their education.

Day 1 of my classes I tell my students, "I don't care if they pass or fail. I don't care if they listen, take notes, study, or do homework. Its their choice. However, with all choices, there are consequences. Good choices get rewarded and bad choices get punished. In the end whether they pass or fail is there choice. My class is easy to pass but just as equally easy to fail."

It takes a few weeks to grasp, but they quickly realize I don't mind failing them if they don't do anything. The first 9 week grades are low, but the other three 9-week periods I usually only have A's and a handful of B's and C's.  Kids, most of the time, strive to reach the bar you set for them.

In other words, you are forced into serving as a surrogate for their parents.

 

[bigbird 60,939]

51 minutes ago, homersapien said:

In other words, you are forced into serving as a surrogate for their parents.

 

Nowadays that's more true than ever.  

[maxwere 82]

@icanthearyou and @bigbird, fundamentally, do you guys believe that we have the right to free education provided by the state?

(I will add... I fully expect DeVos and other "conservatives" to answer "yes" here.  "No" to higher education of course.  ...typical political schizophrenia)

Second ICHY, addressing the socio-economic argument, why should education (early ed in particular) be seen by society as nothing more than ordinary practice?  (ie, specialized professionals need not apply.  teaching a kid elementary skills are as easy as an investment of time)

Third ICHY, why the move to focus on specialization?  Research shows that the most creative, innovative types are very broadly diverse in experience and thinking (see the pedagogy of elite boarding schools of the NE... most of DC educated there).  Specialization encourages human machinery, the working class and technocracy.

[bigbird 60,939]

1 hour ago, maxwere said:

@icanthearyou and @bigbird, fundamentally, do you guys believe that we have the right to free education provided by the state?

I think education is a privilege, not a right. To me, I think through 8th grade should be mandatory, and 9-12 shouldn't be. However, if not enrolled and making grades in HS it should be mandatory to be enrolled in a trade/tech school of some sort until 18. There are too many kids in HS that don't care and make it difficult for those that do want to learn and progress through academia. There are also many that want to be tradesmen but have to jump through the hoops of HS and wait to start their careers.

[icanthearyou 4,468]

20 hours ago, maxwere said:

@icanthearyou and @bigbird, fundamentally, do you guys believe that we have the right to free education provided by the state?

(I will add... I fully expect DeVos and other "conservatives" to answer "yes" here.  "No" to higher education of course.  ...typical political schizophrenia)

Second ICHY, addressing the socio-economic argument, why should education (early ed in particular) be seen by society as nothing more than ordinary practice?  (ie, specialized professionals need not apply.  teaching a kid elementary skills are as easy as an investment of time)

Third ICHY, why the move to focus on specialization?  Research shows that the most creative, innovative types are very broadly diverse in experience and thinking (see the pedagogy of elite boarding schools of the NE... most of DC educated there).  Specialization encourages human machinery, the working class and technocracy.

I believe free public education is right, privilege, and a responsibility.  I believe it is in our collective interests to have an educated populous.

I do not understand what your second paragraph is attempting to imply.  You don't believe teaching ability is significant at this level?  

I do not believe that model is a good fit across the board for all members of society.  Let's not assume that one size will fit everyone.  That model doesn't seem to be working well.

[maxwere 82]

@icanthearyou Second question refers to the fact that there is no shortage of free resources to help you teach your own kids if you so desired (investment of time).  Superman ain't comin' and he needn't be.  Before compulsory ed and the welfare state this country was unprecedentedly upwardly mobile.  We've been brainwashed to see the current system as the only way for low income.  IMO that's by design to keep them in their place.

Quote

I believe it is in our collective interests to have an educated populous.

Totally agree.  However, how do we accomplish these ends and further what does 'educated' even mean?  I believe that its in freedom's best interest to have a populous that is fully of independent critical thinkers.  That's not such a good thing for the powers that be, though is it?  Independence may come and challenge the status quo.

I hope DeVos leadership is more concerned with fostering the third option (homeschool) if you don't like your (regressive) public options.  At least reverse the message... 'everyone can put their kid on a different trajectory through sacrifice and hard work'.  IMO this would go much further than simply laundering public funds into Charter schools.

[icanthearyou 4,468]

2 hours ago, maxwere said:

@icanthearyou Second question refers to the fact that there is no shortage of free resources to help you teach your own kids if you so desired (investment of time).  Superman ain't comin' and he needn't be.  Before compulsory ed and the welfare state this country was unprecedentedly upwardly mobile.  We've been brainwashed to see the current system as the only way for low income.  IMO that's by design to keep them in their place.

Totally agree.  However, how do we accomplish these ends and further what does 'educated' even mean?  I believe that its in freedom's best interest to have a populous that is fully of independent critical thinkers.  That's not such a good thing for the powers that be, though is it?  Independence may come and challenge the status quo.

I hope DeVos leadership is more concerned with fostering the third option (homeschool) if you don't like your (regressive) public options.  At least reverse the message... 'everyone can put their kid on a different trajectory through sacrifice and hard work'.  IMO this would go much further than simply laundering public funds into Charter schools.

Yes, we would not want to have a bunch of ideologues with limited thinking pretending to have all the answers.  You know, those who are more invested in ideological conformity than, society and humanity.  Those hopelessly lost in meaningless ideological rants and narratives.