To Serve and to Protect

[aubearcat 2,153]

Stry, if you don't have Twitter I have listened to the video again, and it is very disturbing. This is a brief synopsis of the angle KK posted:

"**** he's got a gun!" Officer continued, "Gun!" And further says, "Hey bro, you fu*king move, I swear to God!" He then says, "He's going for the gun, s***!" and then you here the shots and see the officer roll to the front of the car and away from the deceased. There was a great deal of movement but was unclear if he reached in and grabbed the gun. Very, very, graphic and gut wrenching video.

I boycott Twitter with ardent passion.

I heard the chatter. My problem with the whole scenario is that all videos I've seen start with a suspect that has his left arm extended outward, as if he were obeying the commands of the officer with the hat (or at least cooperating with him) that is facing him directly. The officer with the hat seemed like his goal was to de-escalate the situation, and the other officer thought warrior cop was the way to go, forcing the officer with the hat to back his play. Watch officer with the hat's movements, it all seems reluctant, and reluctantly reactive.

I got the impression that if officer with the hat had responded to this call solo, there probably would not have been a shooting. I know I've personally told you that I disagree with officers having to patrol solo, but I think in this case the situation was likely escalated unnecessarily by the other officer.

I've encountered a similar mentality in officers that I've worked with. They are basically taught in training that yelling (IE "command voice") is the proper response to any remotely non-compliant suspect or situation. In the real world, people do not always respond well to being yelled at or tackled, right or wrong. The good officers are the ones that develop a spidey-sense of when to be firm and when to de-escalate. I wish there were a good training program to teach that.

I've been on those calls when it was calm and officer x shows up and it starts to get chaotic. At that point though, you must take an alpha personality with your backup to keep the call peaceful.

In my opinion, that is an important thing that makes you a good officer.

Thank you, I definitely try to be. I think having graduated from college and having a different job before policing helped. Also, the further I get into my career and the more grays I get, the more I evolve. A statement that a friend of mine made to me probably in my first 3-5 years helped me with perspective, he said, "this is a job, not my life." A lot of guys can let policing completely takeover their lives and personalities. I have nothing outside of work that says I'm a police officer. No blue line stickers on my car and FOP tags or such.

[WarEagle1983 2,187]

I think this was more than racially motivated. Like ( seldom agree with raptor) but this might have been personal target murder. No excuse will soften it. A situation occurred in Louisiana last year when two black cops targeted a white guy over a personal vendetta only injuring him but killing his young son. Which probably wasnt racial but personal. The victim's background is irrelevant when he is facedown on the ground, unarmed being shot point blank.

Agree. I don't think it's racial either. I moreso believe it was someone with having a power trip. Good point though...it could be a situation where the officers had dealt with him before and where waiting for him to do anything suspiciously to use force against him. Didn't mean to come off like it's racial b/c i don't see this as being a huge factor. It will be interesting to see and hear what more comes out.

I don't think it had anything to do with a power trip. It would've been done different if it was a power trip. Looks like the cops saw the gun and they thought they found an excuse to shoot him me. Kinda like the excuse I've heard before, "kick a knife over there and claim defense." The guy may have been targeted though. That in itself could have racist reasons behind that too. We don't know if he was targeted and why he was targeted if he was targeted.

True. So many unknowns at this point.

correct. And to clarify. I am not saying I don't think race was a factor but it seems to be more of a hit than hate.

Understand. I guess power trip first came to my mind b/c of how one of the cops put a WWE move on him to get him to the ground.

[WarEagle1983 2,187]

Apparently he was legal able to carry and told the cop he had a gun. When he reached for his ID and registration as instructed, he was shot.

Another senseless, cold blooded killing.

In the 2nd video you can see his left arm. He has his left hand open and up like in a surrender state when he was on the ground seconds before he's shot. We can't see his right arm and hand clearly but as some have stated the gun was pulled from his pants pocket after he was shot. Also appeared as if the cop had to reach all the way into his pocket to retrieve it...didn't seem like it was halfway or almost out of his pocket but we don't know for sure. Both videos are just horrible and sad to watch. This could've happened anyone IMO.

[WarEagle1983 2,187]

When they tell you to give them your ID, how do you not reach for anything?

You can even TELL THEM, you are carrying, have a conceal carry permit , are getting your ID and get killed.....

But let me guess....no reason for AF/AM's to feel threatened by the people they PAY TAXES FOR to protect them.....

This is what i'm trying to figure out as well. I think i might start telling them to get themselves. I want to go home to my wife and kids! You get my ID and gun permit in the glove compartment. On a radio station this morning lawyers and activists were telling people to see if they can get a copy of their ID and gun permit so they could put it in visor of the driver side. It's sad that we have to resort to things like this but it's like...do you want to possibly die.

[homersapien 12,172]

When an individual in the vehicle you have pulled over informs you that they have a firearm and a carry permit, that should immediately tell any officer that they are most likely not in any danger whatsoever. In a state like Minnesota, where one must only inform an officer if asked, an officer should consider volunteering that information to be a courtesy and act accordingly.

That's what I thought also. Who tells you they have a gun before trying to shoot you?

Makes you wonder how he would have reacted had the guy been white and everything went down the same.

[Strychnine 1,808]

When an individual in the vehicle you have pulled over informs you that they have a firearm and a carry permit, that should immediately tell any officer that they are most likely not in any danger whatsoever. In a state like Minnesota, where one must only inform an officer if asked, an officer should consider volunteering that information to be a courtesy and act accordingly.

That's what I thought also. Who tells you they have a gun before trying to shoot you?

Makes you wonder how he would have reacted had the guy been white and everything went down the same.

Indeed. I do not believe I have ever heard of an incident where someone informed an officer that they were armed and had a carry permit, only to end up attempting to shoot that officer later in the encounter.

Considering that the most tense moment for an officer that has stopped a vehicle is when he makes first contact with the occupants, I have always thought it best to go ahead and inform them that I have a firearm(s) and where it (they) are. In my experience, it has always reduced the officer's stress level immediately. Several officers have remarked that it is a great indicator that I am most likely not going to become a threat during the encounter.

[aubearcat 2,153]

When an individual in the vehicle you have pulled over informs you that they have a firearm and a carry permit, that should immediately tell any officer that they are most likely not in any danger whatsoever. In a state like Minnesota, where one must only inform an officer if asked, an officer should consider volunteering that information to be a courtesy and act accordingly.

That's what I thought also. Who tells you they have a gun before trying to shoot you?

Makes you wonder how he would have reacted had the guy been white and everything went down the same.

Okay, now I'm not being adversarial but I have to ask a question that may seem confrontational. Why does it have to be about race? Can it not be a bad/stupid/tragic decision when proven so in these cases. White people have been shot by police recently i.e. the female in Auburn, the motorist in Florida, the student at USA who was shot by a black police officer. It's frustrating that it seems people always want to turn a conversation that should be had down a divisive avenue by making it a race issue. If someone of a different race cuts me off in traffic am I to assume its a racial issue...of course not because it's not and neither is this. It's about decision making.

[homersapien 12,172]

When an individual in the vehicle you have pulled over informs you that they have a firearm and a carry permit, that should immediately tell any officer that they are most likely not in any danger whatsoever. In a state like Minnesota, where one must only inform an officer if asked, an officer should consider volunteering that information to be a courtesy and act accordingly.

That's what I thought also. Who tells you they have a gun before trying to shoot you?

Makes you wonder how he would have reacted had the guy been white and everything went down the same.

Okay, now I'm not being adversarial but I have to ask a question that may seem confrontational. Why does it have to be about race? Can it not be a bad/stupid/tragic decision when proven so in these cases. White people have been shot by police recently i.e. the female in Auburn, the motorist in Florida, the student at USA who was shot by a black police officer. It's frustrating that it seems people always want to turn a conversation that should be had down a divisive avenue by making it a race issue. If someone of a different race cuts me off in traffic am I to assume its a racial issue...of course not because it's not and neither is this. It's about decision making.

Mindset, even if subliminal. A white person - or perhaps in this case an Asian person - may not have triggered the same feelings of being a threat.

I am not trying to imply the officer is guilty of overt racism. But we all have instinctual feelings, right or wrong. The appearance - or the race - of a "suspect" can obviously activate those subliminal feelings.

It's simply an unfortunately reality.

[aujeff11 6,243]

http://www.fresnobee.com/news/local/crime/article88000527.html

People have nothing else to do other than videotaping the ruthless government I guess.

[channonc 466]

When an individual in the vehicle you have pulled over informs you that they have a firearm and a carry permit, that should immediately tell any officer that they are most likely not in any danger whatsoever. In a state like Minnesota, where one must only inform an officer if asked, an officer should consider volunteering that information to be a courtesy and act accordingly.

That's what I thought also. Who tells you they have a gun before trying to shoot you?

Makes you wonder how he would have reacted had the guy been white and everything went down the same.

Okay, now I'm not being adversarial but I have to ask a question that may seem confrontational. Why does it have to be about race? Can it not be a bad/stupid/tragic decision when proven so in these cases. White people have been shot by police recently i.e. the female in Auburn, the motorist in Florida, the student at USA who was shot by a black police officer. It's frustrating that it seems people always want to turn a conversation that should be had down a divisive avenue by making it a race issue. If someone of a different race cuts me off in traffic am I to assume its a racial issue...of course not because it's not and neither is this. It's about decision making.

It shouldn't have to be about race, but unfortunately, we haven't heard about these types of incidents happening in the same numbers to white individuals. I think the obvious conclusion is that race is a factor.

[aubearcat 2,153]

2 hours ago, homersapien said:

Mindset, even if subliminal. A white person - or perhaps in this case an Asian person - may not have triggered the same feelings of being a threat.

I am not trying to imply the officer is guilty of overt racism. But we all have instinctual feelings, right or wrong. The appearance - or the race - of a "suspect" can obviously activate those subliminal feelings.

It's simply an unfortunately reality.

Okay, I guess I feel like it's more of a training and decisions based issue but that's just from my perspective. 

[Grumps 3,706]

2 hours ago, channonc said:

It shouldn't have to be about race, but unfortunately, we haven't heard about these types of incidents happening in the same numbers to white individuals. I think the obvious conclusion is that race is a factor.

I wonder if part of the reason that we have not heard about these types of incidents happening in the same numbers to white individuals is because these would not get much press. But I agree with you that race can be a factor, I just hate that we always assume that it IS a factor.

[tiger88 934]

I am the first to say wait for all the facts, but at first glance neither of these incidents look justified. I wouldn't be surprised to see charges filed in one or both incidents. Granted there is not a video yet of the shooting in the Minnesota shooting. 

If things are as they appear then the copsshould be treated like any other citizen by the courts. 

[tgr4lfe 220]

This one could be labelled justified, it's hard to see what the guys right hand is doing,  if he had it on his pocket where the gun was, then it could be justified.  There is never enough at first to tell for sure.  It appears orders to get down went ignored, he was tackled, and the fight, gun seen.  He had to have reached for the gun in order for the officer to fire.  If it is proved he didn't reach for it or have his hand on it, then it is not good for the officer who shot.  

The MN shooting doesn't look good at all seeing the after video by the GF who was driving.  Guy seated in a car.  Extremely difficult position to be in as an LEO, where you can't see someone's hands and don't know what they are pulling out.  

Bad thing is on all of these is not having the full video.  You only see half or a portion of the whole incident.  

[homersapien 12,172]

15 minutes ago, Grumps said:

I wonder if part of the reason that we have not heard about these types of incidents happening in the same numbers to white individuals is because these would not get much press. But I agree with you that race can be a factor, I just hate that we always assume that it IS a factor.

Unjustified shootings involving whites get just as much press.  

http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2015/10/30/zachary-hammond-police-shooting-family-intv-lemon-ctn.cnn

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/final-tally-police-shot-and-killed-984-people-in-2015/2016/01/05/3ec7a404-b3c5-11e5-a76a-0b5145e8679a_story.html

.... Over the past year, The Post found that the vast majority of those shot and killed by police were armed and half of them were white. Still, police killed blacks at three times the rate of whites when adjusted for the populations where these shootings occurred. And although black men represent 6 percent of the U.S. population, they made up nearly 40 percent of those who were killed while unarmed.

Regardless of race, about a quarter of those killed displayed signs of mental illness. 

[AuburnNTexas 7,300]

22 hours ago, WarEagle1983 said:

It's murder..don't see how it's not. It's also saddening that b/c of a few officers like this that the good ones are getting a ton of flack. I'm a black man and been through all the unnecessary regular stuff that comes with being so. I've never really fully trusted the police and avoid them as much as possible but i still respect them if i do encounter them. I just try to make it short and sweet as possible and keep my cool. I admit it's hard to do at times b/c you just want to go about your business and you have someone questioning you when you're doing nothing like any other regular citizen.

And it's not just an attack on blacks these days with cops b/c whites are also seeing this with power trip cops who can now use the defense of i felt threaten to justify their uncalled actions. And it's certainly not just white cops doing it b/c i've ran into a couple bad black cops who i wish i could smack the h3ll out of. Sometimes they're the worst ones in regards to encountering their own race b/c they have a badge to hide behind.

I feel bad for this family. The guy had been in trouble before but that doesn't mean he was wrong in this situation. It's just sad when i clearly see murder and a cop can get away with it and then go read articles where they're putting parents in jail for spanking their kids. It's crazy! One lady just had charges dropped on her b/c she whooped her kids b/c she found out they had stole from someone and she was put in jail for it. They've been good kids up until that point and she was furious and did something about it; as she should. She made it known she in no way raised them like that and works very hard to support her family. We need more parents like that but the law would rather lock them up. If that was my mother she'd kill me herself...along with rest of the elders in my neighborhood.

We have so many issues to try to fix in this country with violence. We need to focus on them ALL. I certainly do my part with my own kids and mentoring other young black men b/c i want to help with black on black crime. There's also rise in domestic violence against women. At the same time murder is murder (speaking only on this situation). It's sad and i pray for the family.

I am white but I couldn't agree with you more. The cop who pulled the gun out and then shot the man being held down by the other cop should be tried for murder plain and simple. I also feel bad for the cop who was holding down the man because the call said the man had been waving a gun he went in and controlled the man to be safe that should have been it.

I also feel bad for all the good cops out there  who do a great and dangerous job and are made to look bad by this bad cop, the one in South Carolina and a few others.

As to the way you teach your kids and other black kids on how to interact with the police it is no different then how I teach my kids who are half Anglo and half Hispanic and it is also no different then my Dad taught me many years ago. Yes sir, No sir and do exactly what they say even if you don't think it is right.

[WarEagle1983 2,187]

Just now, Auburn4life said:

http://video-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t42.1790-2/12872500_1730658767148490_1549075774_n.mp4?efg=eyJybHIiOjMwMCwicmxhIjo1MTIsInZlbmNvZGVfdGFnIjoic3ZlX3NkIn0%3D&rl=300&vabr=133&oh=e833efda27cbcfba1a2667b2debf931a&oe=577EC7B7

Not just a black thing. Its a cops over reacting thing.

Agree to a certain extent. Media just chooses to "flame" the situations involving white cop / black male. IMO we need to get back to communities and police officers having a better relationship with one another. Interacting and having a better understanding of one another. I can recall that growing up. They frequently visited my school, were in my neighborhood esp. during the summer and interacting with kids and checking on the elderly. Not much of that is done these days. Needs to be done more. 

[Auburn4life 24]

It looks as though the cops did murder this guy and the Minnesota guy. I just find it odd that now the MSM is running these stories again right after the FBI releases the stuff about Hillary and today with Gowdy FBI questions.

[WarEagle1983 2,187]

 

[Tiger 8,853]

I am more disheartened now than ever before. :/

[cole256 17,085]

6 hours ago, Auburn4life said:

It looks as though the cops did murder this guy and the Minnesota guy. I just find it odd that now the MSM is running these stories again right after the FBI releases the stuff about Hillary and today with Gowdy FBI questions.

Smfh

[cole256 17,085]

7 hours ago, WarEagle1983 said:

Agree to a certain extent. Media just chooses to "flame" the situations involving white cop / black male. IMO we need to get back to communities and police officers having a better relationship with one another. Interacting and having a better understanding of one another. I can recall that growing up. They frequently visited my school, were in my neighborhood esp. during the summer and interacting with kids and checking on the elderly. Not much of that is done these days. Needs to be done more. 

This guy will never say racism exist, some people are agenda driven and that's it

[cole256 17,085]

7 hours ago, tgr4lfe said:

This one could be labelled justified, it's hard to see what the guys right hand is doing,  if he had it on his pocket where the gun was, then it could be justified.  There is never enough at first to tell for sure.  It appears orders to get down went ignored, he was tackled, and the fight, gun seen.  He had to have reached for the gun in order for the officer to fire.  If it is proved he didn't reach for it or have his hand on it, then it is not good for the officer who shot.  

The MN shooting doesn't look good at all seeing the after video by the GF who was driving.  Guy seated in a car.  Extremely difficult position to be in as an LEO, where you can't see someone's hands and don't know what they are pulling out.  

Bad thing is on all of these is not having the full video.  You only see half or a portion of the whole incident.  

Wow

[AUUSN 823]

Just got a chance to see the MN video and I am completly enraged. What in the actual F*&^ Mr Barney Fife. Stands there, completely shut down, weapon still drawn on a guy you just put four rounds into. No attempt to render aid, no thought to put the victim in your vehicle and rush to the hospital. Nope, sorry dude, I told you to put your hands up so just bleed out.

We gave enemy combatants better care on the battlefield than this American Citizen got in his own f'n country. Just what the f^&/.

[AURaptor 1,137]

2 cops shot in Dallas at BLM event...