Lack of experience on offense

[StatTiger 3,188]

It's a little miss leading. Kozan started all 14 games in 2013 and Golston started all 13 in 2013 also, for Ole Miss. He played a different position but started.

Auburn's problem this past year was simple. The quarterback that everyone thought we had, wasn't that guy. After that was revealed, the team did not have the confidence and faith that they could win the tough game.

The game of football really comes down to teams making plays when it matters the most. Sometimes dumb luck, sometimes players being in the right position and sometimes poor luck.

I wish it were that simple. Seasons can be won or lost before the season ever begins. This is why player evaluation and development is so important. Auburn had more issues than just quarterback. Experience is never misleading. I would take an experienced roster any day over a lesser one. The more experienced players you have, the greater the opportunity for developing leadership. Who were the leaders on offense this season? When games began to slip away, who were the players the younger guys looked up to? During preseason camps, who were the leaders that pushed other players in conditioning programs?

Depth was an issue too. Auburn made a major push in the youth movement this season, especially on the defensive side of the football. This will payoff down the road, but Auburn took some lumps this season because of it.

Yes, there were obvious issues at QB, but the OL struggled in becoming a "gelled" unit. How many times did you see gaping holes for the RB's to run through. There were very few times, blocking at the second level was present, which is why AU is currently 89th in generating run-plays of 10-yards or more.

Auburn did not have one consistent WR this season. Ricardo Louis had his moments, but they were far and few in between. The overall performance of the WR position is a combination of player evaluation, development, coaching and effort. Regardless of the reasons, this is an issue that needs to be addressed moving forward.

Auburn continues to struggle to defend the run since 2010. Until this improves, the defense will never be consistent. This has a lot to do with the front-7, which continued recruiting can only help for the most part.

I think the fact Auburn lost so many close games this season could be a spring board for the future, but there are other concerns that need to be addressed during the off-season. Bringing the right DC aboard is important to build off what Muschamp established in less than one year, but Malzahn's future will hinge on the improvement of the offense. IMO, I would like to see an offensive mindset & scheme established. Does Malzahn want an offense built around the read option? Does he want an offense that is a tad more pass-heavy like we saw at Tulsa? Pick one and recruit for it so that this offense can become closer to "plug & play" like we see at Oregon, Oklahoma or Baylor. Auburn cannot afford to roll into 2016 like they did in 2010, 2013 or 2015 UNLESS they have an incredible option at the QB position. Testing the waters and attempting to find the strengths and minuses during the first 3-4 games of a season will put Auburn in the hole to start the 2016 season. Some of it cannot be avoided, but it would be nice if most of it can be addressed during spring and fall camps, especially at the QB position.

[AUbritt 611]

Iowa this year had a ton of experience, if I'm not mistaken.

[JDUBB4AU 5,366]

God, I'm going to miss Ricardo. I hope he gets drafted to Carolina.

Wait, are you for real? <-- can't tell if serious or not)

I do actually miss Sammie Coates and Darvin Adams and i'll throw Courtney Taylor in the mix too.

I'd glad we are runningback U and not Wide Receiver U - speaking of which - who is recognized as "wide receiver University"?

Darvin Adams was fantastic. Cant say i will miss Louis. He was way too inconsistent.

[AUIH1 1,515]

It's a little miss leading. Kozan started all 14 games in 2013 and Golston started all 13 in 2013 also, for Ole Miss. He played a different position but started.

Auburn's problem this past year was simple. The quarterback that everyone thought we had, wasn't that guy. After that was revealed, the team did not have the confidence and faith that they could win the tough game.

The game of football really comes down to teams making plays when it matters the most. Sometimes dumb luck, sometimes players being in the right position and sometimes poor luck.

I wish it were that simple. Seasons can be won or lost before the season ever begins. This is why play evaluation and development is so important. Auburn had more issues than just quarterback. Experience is never misleading. I would take an experienced roster any day over a lesser one. The more experienced players you have, the greater the opportunity for developing leadership. Who were the leaders on offense this season? When games began to slip away, who were the players the younger guys looked up to? During preseason camps, who were the leaders that pushed other players in conditioning programs?

Depth was an issue too. Auburn made a major push in the youth movement this season, especially on the defensive side of the football. This will payoff down the road, but Auburn took some lumps this season because of it.

Yes, there were obvious issues at QB, but the OL struggled in becoming a "gelled" unit. How many times did you see gaping holes for the RB's to run through. There were very few times, blocking at the second level was present, which is why AU is currently 89th in generating run-plays of 10-yards or more.

Auburn did not have one consistent WR this season. Ricardo Louis had his moments, but they were far and few in between. The overall performance of the WR position is a combination of player evaluation, development, coaching and effort. Regardless of the reasons, this is an issue that needs to be addressed moving forward.

Auburn continues to struggle to defend the run since 2010. Until this improves, the defense will never be consistent. This has a lot to do with the front-7, which continued recruiting can only help for the most part.

I think the fact Auburn lost so many close games this season could be a spring board for the future, but there are other concerns that need to be addressed during the off-season. Bringing the right DC aboard is important to build off what Muschamp established in less than one year, but Malzahn's future will hinge on the improvement of the offense. IMO, I would like to see an offensive mindset & scheme established. Does Malzahn want an offense built around the read option? Does he want an offense that is a tad more pass-heavy like we saw at Tulsa? Pick one and recruit for it so that this offense can become closer to "plug & play" like we see at Oregon, Oklahoma or Baylor. Auburn cannot afford to roll into 2016 like they did in 2010, 2013 or 2015 UNLESS they have an incredible option at the QB position. Testing the waters and attempting to find the strengths and minuses during the first 3-4 games of a season will put Auburn in the hole to start the 2016 season. Some of it cannot be avoided, but it would be nice if most of it can be addressed during spring and fall camps, especially at the QB position.

This. To put it simply it is all about player evaluation, player development and making the right play calls. All of this goes to coaching.

wde

[EagleReedle 14]

It's a little miss leading. Kozan started all 14 games in 2013 and Golston started all 13 in 2013 also, for Ole Miss. He played a different position but started.

Auburn's problem this past year was simple. The quarterback that everyone thought we had, wasn't that guy. After that was revealed, the team did not have the confidence and faith that they could win the tough game.

The game of football really comes down to teams making plays when it matters the most. Sometimes dumb luck, sometimes players being in the right position and sometimes poor luck.

I wish it were that simple. Seasons can be won or lost before the season ever begins. This is why player evaluation and development is so important. Auburn had more issues than just quarterback. Experience is never misleading. I would take an experienced roster any day over a lesser one. The more experienced players you have, the greater the opportunity for developing leadership. Who were the leaders on offense this season? When games began to slip away, who were the players the younger guys looked up to? During preseason camps, who were the leaders that pushed other players in conditioning programs?

Depth was an issue too. Auburn made a major push in the youth movement this season, especially on the defensive side of the football. This will payoff down the road, but Auburn took some lumps this season because of it.

Yes, there were obvious issues at QB, but the OL struggled in becoming a "gelled" unit. How many times did you see gaping holes for the RB's to run through. There were very few times, blocking at the second level was present, which is why AU is currently 89th in generating run-plays of 10-yards or more.

Auburn did not have one consistent WR this season. Ricardo Louis had his moments, but they were far and few in between. The overall performance of the WR position is a combination of player evaluation, development, coaching and effort. Regardless of the reasons, this is an issue that needs to be addressed moving forward.

Auburn continues to struggle to defend the run since 2010. Until this improves, the defense will never be consistent. This has a lot to do with the front-7, which continued recruiting can only help for the most part.

I think the fact Auburn lost so many close games this season could be a spring board for the future, but there are other concerns that need to be addressed during the off-season. Bringing the right DC aboard is important to build off what Muschamp established in less than one year, but Malzahn's future will hinge on the improvement of the offense. IMO, I would like to see an offensive mindset & scheme established. Does Malzahn want an offense built around the read option? Does he want an offense that is a tad more pass-heavy like we saw at Tulsa? Pick one and recruit for it so that this offense can become closer to "plug & play" like we see at Oregon, Oklahoma or Baylor. Auburn cannot afford to roll into 2016 like they did in 2010, 2013 or 2015 UNLESS they have an incredible option at the QB position. Testing the waters and attempting to find the strengths and minuses during the first 3-4 games of a season will put Auburn in the hole to start the 2016 season. Some of it cannot be avoided, but it would be nice if most of it can be addressed during spring and fall camps, especially at the QB position.

Stat - I think it is simply as simple as AuBaseball put it - The one time we had truly exceptional qb play imo was against Arkansas and our wr's dropped it. <-- could be a result of lack of experience as you mentioned.

Losing duke hurt as well but the struggles against the run I primarily blame on Fornette, Henry & that jsu scrambler.

I'd like to see the offense transformed to the Tulsa days / Chris Todd esque if we are going to roll with Sean White - otherwise, as you said, recruit a scrambler and we can do what we've been doing previously.

[johnnyAU 3,745]

Neither Cam nor Marshall would have made this team as successful as we had hoped this season. Cam made a big difference in 2010, but he had 4 multi-year starters on the OL, a decent group of WR's, the emergence of Mike Dyer and Lutz and a defense full of seasoned vets, with leaders at each position, not to mention a disrupter in Nick Fairley. Marshall came in with a good OL, a top 3 pick in Robinson, a bulldozer in Prosch, a future Heisman finalist in Tre Mason, Sammie Coates, Uzomah and a good bit of experience on D.

JJ may not have lived up to his hype, but he didn't exactly have a solid foundation around him either, especially with the injuries and departures.

I'd also like to see some Tulsa style offense with Sean White next season. He's a confident kid with a live, and pretty accurate arm and it's a shame so many people take the simple route and resign to think Malzahn's offense can only function with a true dual threat QB and a heavy reliance on the zone read.

[keesler 5,975]

I wish it were that simple. Seasons can be won or lost before the season ever begins. This is why player evaluation and development is so important. Auburn had more issues than just quarterback. Experience is never misleading. I would take an experienced roster any day over a lesser one. The more experienced players you have, the greater the opportunity for developing leadership. Who were the leaders on offense this season? When games began to slip away, who were the players the younger guys looked up to? During preseason camps, who were the leaders that pushed other players in conditioning programs?

Depth was an issue too. Auburn made a major push in the youth movement this season, especially on the defensive side of the football. This will payoff down the road, but Auburn took some lumps this season because of it.

Yes, there were obvious issues at QB, but the OL struggled in becoming a "gelled" unit. How many times did you see gaping holes for the RB's to run through. There were very few times, blocking at the second level was present, which is why AU is currently 89th in generating run-plays of 10-yards or more.

Auburn did not have one consistent WR this season. Ricardo Louis had his moments, but they were far and few in between. The overall performance of the WR position is a combination of player evaluation, development, coaching and effort. Regardless of the reasons, this is an issue that needs to be addressed moving forward.

Auburn continues to struggle to defend the run since 2010. Until this improves, the defense will never be consistent. This has a lot to do with the front-7, which continued recruiting can only help for the most part.

I think the fact Auburn lost so many close games this season could be a spring board for the future, but there are other concerns that need to be addressed during the off-season. Bringing the right DC aboard is important to build off what Muschamp established in less than one year, but Malzahn's future will hinge on the improvement of the offense. IMO, I would like to see an offensive mindset & scheme established. Does Malzahn want an offense built around the read option? Does he want an offense that is a tad more pass-heavy like we saw at Tulsa? Pick one and recruit for it so that this offense can become closer to "plug & play" like we see at Oregon, Oklahoma or Baylor. Auburn cannot afford to roll into 2016 like they did in 2010, 2013 or 2015 UNLESS they have an incredible option at the QB position. Testing the waters and attempting to find the strengths and minuses during the first 3-4 games of a season will put Auburn in the hole to start the 2016 season. Some of it cannot be avoided, but it would be nice if most of it can be addressed during spring and fall camps, especially at the QB position.

GREAT Post!

In this conference you absolutely have to have a coaching staff that knows how to evaluate talent and can get that talent on campus. We've had top 10 classes, so the talent is here. This is will be Gus' 4th season. We should have experience and plenty of depth by now - the players should have been trained and developed to their fullest potential after 4 yrs, and we should be able to see the leaders emerge after this amount of time.

[EagleReedle 14]

Neither Cam nor Marshall would have made this team as successful as we had hoped this season. Cam made a big difference in 2010, but he had 4 multi-year starters on the OL, a decent group of WR's, the emergence of Mike Dyer and Lutz and a defense full of seasoned vets, with leaders at each position, not to mention a disrupter in Nick Fairley. Marshall came in with a good OL, a top 3 pick in Robinson, a bulldozer in Prosch, a future Heisman finalist in Tre Mason, Sammie Coates, Uzomah and a good bit of experience on D.

JJ may not have lived up to his hype, but he didn't exactly have a solid foundation around him either, especially with the injuries and departures.

I'd also like to see some Tulsa style offense with Sean White next season. He's a confident kid with a live, and pretty accurate arm and it's a shame so many people take the simple route and resign to think Malzahn's offense can only function with a true dual threat QB and a heavy reliance on the zone read.

I totally agree with you that we need a Greg Robinson, King Dunlap, Reese Dismukes type o-line in a major major way but mainly just another Greg Robinson type recruit. Between Arkansas' O-line and Ole Miss just getting Greg Little the #1 o-line recruit, i am worried.

[80Tiger 907]

Neither Cam nor Marshall would have made this team as successful as we had hoped this season. Cam made a big difference in 2010, but he had 4 multi-year starters on the OL, a decent group of WR's, the emergence of Mike Dyer and Lutz and a defense full of seasoned vets, with leaders at each position, not to mention a disrupter in Nick Fairley. Marshall came in with a good OL, a top 3 pick in Robinson, a bulldozer in Prosch, a future Heisman finalist in Tre Mason, Sammie Coates, Uzomah and a good bit of experience on D.

JJ may not have lived up to his hype, but he didn't exactly have a solid foundation around him either, especially with the injuries and departures.

I'd also like to see some Tulsa style offense with Sean White next season. He's a confident kid with a live, and pretty accurate arm and it's a shame so many people take the simple route and resign to think Malzahn's offense can only function with a true dual threat QB and a heavy reliance on the zone read.

Somewhat disagree. With NM as QB last year I think we win GA for sure, Moo Sate probably and maybe Ole Miss and Arky. So somewhere between 8-4 and 10-2. So while not championship level, better than what we did. Also, if you drop SW in 2013 or 2010 do we do as well? Not even close.

[McLoofus 35,182]

It's a little miss leading. Kozan started all 14 games in 2013 and Golston started all 13 in 2013 also, for Ole Miss. He played a different position but started.

There is nothing misleading about it. Kozan started all 14 games between a Rimington winner and a top-2 overall LT. Then he spent a year out with a hurt back. Then came back to play between a first-time center- like, never even played it in high school- and a guy who, while in his 2nd year starting, was definitely not Greg Robinson. Also, the offense he played in in 2013 was almost exclusively zone read. The train wreck we trotted out there this season never figured out what it was, but it was definitely not zone read.

And about that brand new center he started next to: you seriously think that playing a different position- one where he never touched the ball or had to make the pre-snap reads to help out his QB- on a different team in any way equates to him playing center for Auburn in front of two first time starters at QB (one of whom turned into a marshmallow on game day)? I really don't understand how this thought persists among Auburn fans.

Yes, football is about making plays. Other than the occasional young phenom, veterans are the ones who make plays. We didn't have enough of them. Yes, there were other problems, and yes, the most glaring of which was QB play. But you don't think Reese Dismukes could've helped JJ and Sean out a little? More so maybe than the guy who had two false start penalties and a bad snap 4 games deep into the schedule? Yes, read that again: our center had two false starts in one game. That is inexperience.

Stat told us before the season- with numbers, as always- that this could be a problem. Gus told us that when he looked at the depth chart going into the season, the lack of experience jumped off the page. We had 2 freshmen at HB. We had 2 freshmen at TE. WR... well, we have a development issue there, but we also haven't passed the ball much (or all that accurately) in 3 years.

Experience wasn't the only problem, but to say that it wasn't a major contributing factor is to ignore the facts.

[Win4AU 4,203]

Well based off trends Auburn should be playing in Tampa next year for the championship with all this returning experience.

[DAG 35,152]

God, I'm going to miss Ricardo. I hope he gets drafted to Carolina.

As a Carolina fan, I hope you are 110 percent wrong.

[McLoofus 35,182]

Ricardo was a great team guy and is an outstanding athlete. I won't be surprised if he's getting paid to play by somebody next year.

Demaryious Thomas, Leonard Hankerson, Mike Evans... all guys who get paid a lot of money to drop as many balls as Ricardo did.

[Win4AU 4,203]

Ricardo was a great team guy and is an outstanding athlete. I won't be surprised if he's getting paid to play by somebody next year.

Demaryious Thomas, Leonard Hankerson, Mike Evans... all guys who get paid a lot of money to drop as many balls as Ricardo did.

Don't forget Tedd Ginn Jr. He's Boom or bust

[McLoofus 35,182]

Ricardo was a great team guy and is an outstanding athlete. I won't be surprised if he's getting paid to play by somebody next year.

Demaryious Thomas, Leonard Hankerson, Mike Evans... all guys who get paid a lot of money to drop as many balls as Ricardo did.

Don't forget Tedd Ginn Jr. He's Boom or bust

Yep. Could probably come up with some more, too. People always treat their own players worse when it comes to dropped balls. I guess I get why.

[AU64 10,122]

Ricardo was a great team guy and is an outstanding athlete. I won't be surprised if he's getting paid to play by somebody next year.

Demaryious Thomas, Leonard Hankerson, Mike Evans... all guys who get paid a lot of money to drop as many balls as Ricardo did.

Don't forget Tedd Ginn Jr. He's Boom or bust

Yep. Could probably come up with some more, too. People always treat their own players worse when it comes to dropped balls. I guess I get why.

I think it's mostly that people commenting on this board don't really pay much attention to what goes on elsewhere....thus they don't see the same mistakes being made by players elsewhere.

Somehow think that AU players should be perfect...hit every pass, never drop a ball, that every time our RB shakes off a tackler it's because he is great...and every time an opposing RB shakes off an AU tackler it's because our players are terrible..or our coaches are bad.

JMO but not many people on this board cut our own troops much slack.....

[McLoofus 35,182]

Ricardo was a great team guy and is an outstanding athlete. I won't be surprised if he's getting paid to play by somebody next year.

Demaryious Thomas, Leonard Hankerson, Mike Evans... all guys who get paid a lot of money to drop as many balls as Ricardo did.

Don't forget Tedd Ginn Jr. He's Boom or bust

Yep. Could probably come up with some more, too. People always treat their own players worse when it comes to dropped balls. I guess I get why.

I think it's mostly that people commenting on this board don't really pay much attention to what goes on elsewhere....thus they don't see the same mistakes being made by players elsewhere.

Somehow think that AU players should be perfect...hit every pass, never drop a ball, that every time our RB shakes off a tackler it's because he is great...and every time an opposing RB shakes off an AU tackler it's because our players are terrible..or our coaches are bad.

JMO but not many people on this board cut our own troops much slack.....

Reading my mind this morning, 64.

[AU64 10,122]

Ricardo was a great team guy and is an outstanding athlete. I won't be surprised if he's getting paid to play by somebody next year.

Demaryious Thomas, Leonard Hankerson, Mike Evans... all guys who get paid a lot of money to drop as many balls as Ricardo did.

Don't forget Tedd Ginn Jr. He's Boom or bust

Yep. Could probably come up with some more, too. People always treat their own players worse when it comes to dropped balls. I guess I get why.

I think it's mostly that people commenting on this board don't really pay much attention to what goes on elsewhere....thus they don't see the same mistakes being made by players elsewhere.

Somehow think that AU players should be perfect...hit every pass, never drop a ball, that every time our RB shakes off a tackler it's because he is great...and every time an opposing RB shakes off an AU tackler it's because our players are terrible..or our coaches are bad.

JMO but not many people on this board cut our own troops much slack.....

Reading my mind this morning, 64.

actually just echoing your wise comments......

[Warbird82 160]

Ricardo was a great team guy and is an outstanding athlete. I won't be surprised if he's getting paid to play by somebody next year.

Demaryious Thomas, Leonard Hankerson, Mike Evans... all guys who get paid a lot of money to drop as many balls as Ricardo did.

Don't forget Tedd Ginn Jr. He's Boom or bust

Yep. Could probably come up with some more, too. People always treat their own players worse when it comes to dropped balls. I guess I get why.

I think it's mostly that people commenting on this board don't really pay much attention to what goes on elsewhere....thus they don't see the same mistakes being made by players elsewhere.

Somehow think that AU players should be perfect...hit every pass, never drop a ball, that every time our RB shakes off a tackler it's because he is great...and every time an opposing RB shakes off an AU tackler it's because our players are terrible..or our coaches are bad.

JMO but not many people on this board cut our own troops much slack.....

I'm sorry but this is a bunch of hogwash! I watch a lot of football and I don't see many teams start a game with 6 straight drops...only AU does that against the Hawgs no less. Stop making excuses for these, as some have already mentioned, highly rated players! The excuse making has got to stop...and players have to be make plays...or Gus will be gone. This game is really that simple!

[AU64 10,122]

Ricardo was a great team guy and is an outstanding athlete. I won't be surprised if he's getting paid to play by somebody next year.

Demaryious Thomas, Leonard Hankerson, Mike Evans... all guys who get paid a lot of money to drop as many balls as Ricardo did.

Don't forget Tedd Ginn Jr. He's Boom or bust

Yep. Could probably come up with some more, too. People always treat their own players worse when it comes to dropped balls. I guess I get why.

I think it's mostly that people commenting on this board don't really pay much attention to what goes on elsewhere....thus they don't see the same mistakes being made by players elsewhere.

Somehow think that AU players should be perfect...hit every pass, never drop a ball, that every time our RB shakes off a tackler it's because he is great...and every time an opposing RB shakes off an AU tackler it's because our players are terrible..or our coaches are bad.

JMO but not many people on this board cut our own troops much slack.....

I'm sorry but this is a bunch of hogwash! I watch a lot of football and I don't see many teams start a game with 6 straight drops...only AU does that against the Hawgs no less. Stop making excuses for these, as some have already mentioned, highly rated players! The excuse making has got to stop...and players have to be make plays...or Gus will be gone. This game is really that simple!

How many drops did the Giants start with yesterday.....well maybe not 6 but their all world WR missed a few right to begin with. Pick one game...and lay it on the players....that's your right....but what's hogwash is that the same type thing does not happen everywhere.

[Warbird82 160]

Ricardo was a great team guy and is an outstanding athlete. I won't be surprised if he's getting paid to play by somebody next year.

Demaryious Thomas, Leonard Hankerson, Mike Evans... all guys who get paid a lot of money to drop as many balls as Ricardo did.

Don't forget Tedd Ginn Jr. He's Boom or bust

Yep. Could probably come up with some more, too. People always treat their own players worse when it comes to dropped balls. I guess I get why.

I think it's mostly that people commenting on this board don't really pay much attention to what goes on elsewhere....thus they don't see the same mistakes being made by players elsewhere.

Somehow think that AU players should be perfect...hit every pass, never drop a ball, that every time our RB shakes off a tackler it's because he is great...and every time an opposing RB shakes off an AU tackler it's because our players are terrible..or our coaches are bad.

JMO but not many people on this board cut our own troops much slack.....

I'm sorry but this is a bunch of hogwash! I watch a lot of football and I don't see many teams start a game with 6 straight drops...only AU does that against the Hawgs no less. Stop making excuses for these, as some have already mentioned, highly rated players! The excuse making has got to stop...and players have to be make plays...or Gus will be gone. This game is really that simple!

How many drops did the Giants start with yesterday.....well maybe not 6 but their all world WR missed a few right to begin with. Pick one game...and lay it on the players....that's your right....but what's hogwash is that the same type thing does not happen everywhere.

I watched the Carolina/Giants game. OBJr dropped one pass, albeit a sure touchdown...and he only had two passes thrown to him in the first half because Norton was up in his grill...so that dog won't hunt. There are incompletions and then there are drops. We had too many drops...period. And I couldn't care less how many other teams drop the ball...unless it happens on the day AU plays them. Excuse making for drops does not make them better receivers...something has to change...IMNSHO.

[cole256 17,085]

Well Ginn for the Panthers is second in the league in drops....

[AUbritt 611]

Well Ginn for the Panthers is second in the league in drops....

Yep. Turrible.

[alexava 6,976]

Well Ginn for the Panthers is second in the league in drops....

weird, because it's or seems like he drops the easy ones. Makes some not so easy catches that make you wonder how on earth he dropped the gimmies.

[aubaseball 2,876]

I guess that 4 year starting center didn't snap the ball into his butt and cause a fumble that cost us a chance at winning the game against aTm last year.

My point was that with all the inexperience that was on the field this year, AU still could have won a few games with just a few more plays going its way (good luck or good play). AU obviously needs more experience and better depth, but even with experience luck still plays a roll in winning or losing.