Should Doctors Have to Provide Their Beliefs to Patients

[TitanTiger 21,064]

Duh. It does not represent MY morality and therefore, doesn't matter. You need to stick to MY morality as the baseline or benchmark for the term morality. Thank you.

Um...both sides are arguing in favor of their morality. This isn't a situation where one side is morality-neutral and the other is trying to impose a morality on others. Both are trying to have their morality carry the day in our laws. The only question is whose morality are we going to adopt.

The obvious answer is mine.

I expect nothing less. The point is, there isn't a morally neutral ground to be occupied sometimes. This is one of those times. To characterize only one side as trying to impose morality is, at best, disingenuous.

[icanthearyou 4,468]

Duh. It does not represent MY morality and therefore, doesn't matter. You need to stick to MY morality as the baseline or benchmark for the term morality. Thank you.

Um...both sides are arguing in favor of their morality. This isn't a situation where one side is morality-neutral and the other is trying to impose a morality on others. Both are trying to have their morality carry the day in our laws. The only question is whose morality are we going to adopt.

The obvious answer is mine.

I expect nothing less. The point is, there isn't a morally neutral ground to be occupied sometimes. This is one of those times. To characterize only one side as trying to impose morality is, at best, disingenuous.

Perhaps there is? Anyone willing to take on the responsibility, for those unwilling to fulfill their responsibility, would be on the moral high ground, in my opinion.

[homersapien 12,172]

No, that's not true. There has never been an effort to change the technical terminology to make certain decisions more palatable.

The "technical" terminology clearly evolved as a matter of science. It was never defined by the controversy of abortion.

The term fetus was used for centuries as synonymous with "offspring" or "baby." It's only in relatively recent history that it was used to distinguish between an unborn child and one who has been born. Even as recently as last year, the NY Times tried to stretch is definition to lessen the implications of what Kermit Gosnell was doing in his abortion clinic in Philly:

http://www.dennyburk...-gosnell-trial/

Another example of sanitizing terminology to lessen the impact of what's happening:

"products of conception"

Both sides shade language to further their aims.

1. The term fetus has never been used for a fertilized egg technically speaking.

2. The technical meaning of fetus is an unborn offspring of a mammal more than eight weeks after conception.

3. "Product of conception" is not a technical or scientific term, it is colloquial.

4. While both sides may shade their language to "further their aims", technical terminology - or terminology used by science - is not established for any purpose other than to provide a technical description. Words devised to promote an agenda are not scientific by definition. Likewise the misuse of technical terminology to promote an agenda does not change the actual meaning of those words.

[homersapien 12,172]

Duh. It does not represent MY morality and therefore, doesn't matter. You need to stick to MY morality as the baseline or benchmark for the term morality. Thank you.

Um...both sides are arguing in favor of their morality. This isn't a situation where one side is morality-neutral and the other is trying to impose a morality on others. Both are trying to have their morality carry the day in our laws. The only question is whose morality are we going to adopt.

The obvious answer is mine.

I expect nothing less. The point is, there isn't a morally neutral ground to be occupied sometimes. This is one of those times. To characterize only one side as trying to impose morality is, at best, disingenuous.

That's fair. I don't think anyone should be required to use any birth control they consider immoral.

[TitanTiger 21,064]

Duh. It does not represent MY morality and therefore, doesn't matter. You need to stick to MY morality as the baseline or benchmark for the term morality. Thank you.

Um...both sides are arguing in favor of their morality. This isn't a situation where one side is morality-neutral and the other is trying to impose a morality on others. Both are trying to have their morality carry the day in our laws. The only question is whose morality are we going to adopt.

The obvious answer is mine.

I expect nothing less. The point is, there isn't a morally neutral ground to be occupied sometimes. This is one of those times. To characterize only one side as trying to impose morality is, at best, disingenuous.

That's fair. I don't think anyone should be required to use any birth control they consider immoral.

Nor pay for it, provide it or facilitate its procurement.

[channonc 466]

...My regard for innocent life is higher though than the standard that the Ella issue presents which is the attempted interception of a fertilized egg from implantation. To me, once the egg is fertilized it IS a human being who truly bears the image of God and is precious no matter how infinitesimal. Human intervention to thwart its implantation is abortion. To support the prescribed use of Ella you must regard the fertilized egg as unwanted debris, an inconvenience, rather than a responsibility and gift from God.

Playing fast and loose with the term abortion, I see. I suppose you think the 80 or so percent of fertilized eggs that don't make it to implantation without intervention of any sort could be considered miscarriages, too.

There is a difference between a miscarriage and a forced miscarriage. To conflate the two as if there's no distinction between a medication that can induce such a thing and that thing happening on its own would be like saying there's no difference in driving along and accidentally picking up a nail in your tire and someone tossing a box full of nails on to the road right in front of your car as you drive by.

A fertilized egg that never implants is not a miscarriage.

A fertilized egg is not a "baby" either so you are barking up a tree. Controlling the terminology is a neat way around the facts.

I'm well aware of the efforts to control the terminology to make certain decisions more palatable.

No, that's not true. There has never been an effort to change the technical terminology to make certain decisions more palatable.

The "technical" terminology clearly evolved as a matter of science. It was never defined by the controversy of abortion.

This.

[AUDub 11,784]

Off topic, but I thought I'd share this just to lighten the mood a bit.

[homersapien 12,172]

Duh. It does not represent MY morality and therefore, doesn't matter. You need to stick to MY morality as the baseline or benchmark for the term morality. Thank you.

Um...both sides are arguing in favor of their morality. This isn't a situation where one side is morality-neutral and the other is trying to impose a morality on others. Both are trying to have their morality carry the day in our laws. The only question is whose morality are we going to adopt.

The obvious answer is mine.

I expect nothing less. The point is, there isn't a morally neutral ground to be occupied sometimes. This is one of those times. To characterize only one side as trying to impose morality is, at best, disingenuous.

That's fair. I don't think anyone should be required to use any birth control they consider immoral.

Nor pay for it, provide it or facilitate its procurement.

Only if you are a person, IMO. A corporation's rights are not the same as a person's, which I suppose is the bone of contention with the SCOTUS. In the former, the employee's right to the standard benefits provided by the ACA trump the rights of any given majority shareholder to withhold them.

In the latter case, the individual's rights to not violate their religious beliefs trump the employee's rights to receive care that might do so. But even then, a can of worms has been opened if you include any and every claim of religious doctrine.

The simple solution is to remove the requirement of employers to be involved with their employees healthcare coverage.

But I will concede that you are legally correct for now, in either case, based on the HL ruling.

[homersapien 12,172]

Off topic, but I thought I'd share this just to lighten the mood a bit.

:laugh:

(Be prepared for an onslaught of posts explaining the differences between Islam and Christianity. )

[AU-24 3,128]

Per operations normal the Liberal, Mainstream Media refuse to cover the following:

How do employees who work for closely held companies like Hobby Lobby get birth control?

Women who work for Hobby Lobby can still get birth-control pills. The company didn’t object to that, or 15 other types of contraceptives — just the morning after pills and the IUDs because they believe they work after conception and trigger abortions.

http://www.freep.com/article/20140702/NEWS06/307020051/hobby-lobby-decision-what-it-means

In other words: Hobby Lobby and other firms/businesses are still providing 16 different forms of Birth Control including "The Pill" They just don't want to pay for abortions, who could blame them?

By the way....The morning after pill, without insurance, cost around $40. I believe a condom cost around $1? So if the condom fails, spend $40 and have your abortion triggered.

If the basic facts were reported (without the liberal, distorted truth, bias) there would be allot less controversy!!

[Weegle777 78]

Don't try to bring logic into this! They took away something so conservatives are woman haters!

[TexasTiger 14,068]

Per operations normal the Liberal, Mainstream Media refuse to cover the following:

How do employees who work for closely held companies like Hobby Lobby get birth control?

Women who work for Hobby Lobby can still get birth-control pills. The company didn’t object to that, or 15 other types of contraceptives — just the morning after pills and the IUDs because they believe they work after conception and trigger abortions.

In other words: Hobby Lobby and other firms/businesses are still providing 16 different forms of Birth Control including "The Pill" They just don't want to pay for abortions, who could blame them?

By the way....The morning after pill, without insurance, cost around $40. I believe a condom cost around $1? So if the condom fails, spend $40 and have your abortion triggered.

If the basic facts were reported (without the liberal, distorted truth, bias) there would be allot less controversy!!

Supreme Ct . decisions are bigger than these particular employees circumstance. This goes over a lot of conservative heads.

[Weegle777 78]

The wise one has spoken his drivel.

[Texan4Auburn 1,626]

Per operations normal the Liberal, Mainstream Media refuse to cover the following:

How do employees who work for closely held companies like Hobby Lobby get birth control?

Women who work for Hobby Lobby can still get birth-control pills. The company didn’t object to that, or 15 other types of contraceptives — just the morning after pills and the IUDs because they believe they work after conception and trigger abortions.

http://www.freep.com...n-what-it-means

In other words: Hobby Lobby and other firms/businesses are still providing 16 different forms of Birth Control including "The Pill" They just don't want to pay for abortions, who could blame them?

By the way....The morning after pill, without insurance, cost around $40. I believe a condom cost around $1? So if the condom fails, spend $40 and have your abortion triggered.

If the basic facts were reported (without the liberal, distorted truth, bias) there would be allot less controversy!!

Ya but the whole stand on abortions seems kind of silly when you invest in corporations that actually research and produce these drugs, and your products that you sell are mostly made and come from a country that actually is known for forced abortions by the government.

We won't support them for employee's regardless of their health, but by God we won't let their purpose stop us from lining our pockets though.

[AU-24 3,128]

Per operations normal the Liberal, Mainstream Media refuse to cover the following:

How do employees who work for closely held companies like Hobby Lobby get birth control?

Women who work for Hobby Lobby can still get birth-control pills. The company didn’t object to that, or 15 other types of contraceptives — just the morning after pills and the IUDs because they believe they work after conception and trigger abortions.

http://www.freep.com...n-what-it-means

In other words: Hobby Lobby and other firms/businesses are still providing 16 different forms of Birth Control including "The Pill" They just don't want to pay for abortions, who could blame them?

By the way....The morning after pill, without insurance, cost around $40. I believe a condom cost around $1? So if the condom fails, spend $40 and have your abortion triggered.

If the basic facts were reported (without the liberal, distorted truth, bias) there would be allot less controversy!!

Ya but the whole stand on abortions seems kind of silly when you invest in corporations that actually research and produce these drugs, and your products that you sell are mostly made and come from a country that actually is known for forced abortions by the government.

We won't support them for employee's regardless of their health, but by God we won't let their purpose stop us from lining our pockets though.

"Hobby Lobby themselves" do not invest in, nor support companies that perform or research abortion drugs. They do allow their employees to choose what Mutual Funds they want their 401k going to. Yes, some of the funds support certain kind of abortion and again, they allow their employees to choose these funds. Would you rather Hobby Lobby say: You can't choose this fund or that fund, because of abortion??

This just further shows how open and fair Hobby Lobby is and how bias the media that cover them are!!

[icanthearyou 4,468]

Per operations normal the Liberal, Mainstream Media refuse to cover the following:

How do employees who work for closely held companies like Hobby Lobby get birth control?

Women who work for Hobby Lobby can still get birth-control pills. The company didn’t object to that, or 15 other types of contraceptives — just the morning after pills and the IUDs because they believe they work after conception and trigger abortions.

http://www.freep.com...n-what-it-means

In other words: Hobby Lobby and other firms/businesses are still providing 16 different forms of Birth Control including "The Pill" They just don't want to pay for abortions, who could blame them?

By the way....The morning after pill, without insurance, cost around $40. I believe a condom cost around $1? So if the condom fails, spend $40 and have your abortion triggered.

If the basic facts were reported (without the liberal, distorted truth, bias) there would be allot less controversy!!

Ya but the whole stand on abortions seems kind of silly when you invest in corporations that actually research and produce these drugs, and your products that you sell are mostly made and come from a country that actually is known for forced abortions by the government.

We won't support them for employee's regardless of their health, but by God we won't let their purpose stop us from lining our pockets though.

Hobby Lobby let's their employees choose what Mutual Funds they want their 401k going to. Yes, some of the funds support certain kind of abortion. Would you rather Hobby Lobby say: You can't choose this fund or that fund because of abortion??

This just further shows how open Hobby Lobby is and how bias the media that cover them are!!

Possibly. However, you did not address China. Perhaps, morality takes a backseat to economic interests?

[AU-24 3,128]

Per operations normal the Liberal, Mainstream Media refuse to cover the following:

How do employees who work for closely held companies like Hobby Lobby get birth control?

Women who work for Hobby Lobby can still get birth-control pills. The company didn’t object to that, or 15 other types of contraceptives — just the morning after pills and the IUDs because they believe they work after conception and trigger abortions.

http://www.freep.com...n-what-it-means

In other words: Hobby Lobby and other firms/businesses are still providing 16 different forms of Birth Control including "The Pill" They just don't want to pay for abortions, who could blame them?

By the way....The morning after pill, without insurance, cost around $40. I believe a condom cost around $1? So if the condom fails, spend $40 and have your abortion triggered.

If the basic facts were reported (without the liberal, distorted truth, bias) there would be allot less controversy!!

Ya but the whole stand on abortions seems kind of silly when you invest in corporations that actually research and produce these drugs, and your products that you sell are mostly made and come from a country that actually is known for forced abortions by the government.

We won't support them for employee's regardless of their health, but by God we won't let their purpose stop us from lining our pockets though.

Hobby Lobby let's their employees choose what Mutual Funds they want their 401k going to. Yes, some of the funds support certain kind of abortion. Would you rather Hobby Lobby say: You can't choose this fund or that fund because of abortion??

This just further shows how open Hobby Lobby is and how bias the media that cover them are!!

Possibly. However, you did not address China. Perhaps, morality takes a backseat to economic interests?

Hugh?

[Texan4Auburn 1,626]

Per operations normal the Liberal, Mainstream Media refuse to cover the following:

How do employees who work for closely held companies like Hobby Lobby get birth control?

Women who work for Hobby Lobby can still get birth-control pills. The company didn’t object to that, or 15 other types of contraceptives — just the morning after pills and the IUDs because they believe they work after conception and trigger abortions.

http://www.freep.com...n-what-it-means

In other words: Hobby Lobby and other firms/businesses are still providing 16 different forms of Birth Control including "The Pill" They just don't want to pay for abortions, who could blame them?

By the way....The morning after pill, without insurance, cost around $40. I believe a condom cost around $1? So if the condom fails, spend $40 and have your abortion triggered.

If the basic facts were reported (without the liberal, distorted truth, bias) there would be allot less controversy!!

Ya but the whole stand on abortions seems kind of silly when you invest in corporations that actually research and produce these drugs, and your products that you sell are mostly made and come from a country that actually is known for forced abortions by the government.

We won't support them for employee's regardless of their health, but by God we won't let their purpose stop us from lining our pockets though.

"Hobby Lobby themselves" do not invest in, nor support companies that perform or research abortion drugs. They do allow their employees to choose what Mutual Funds they want their 401k going to. Yes, some of the funds support certain kind of abortion and again, they allow their employees to choose these funds. Would you rather Hobby Lobby say: You can't choose this fund or that fund, because of abortion??

This just further shows how open and fair Hobby Lobby is and how bias the media that cover them are!!

Yes. If your gonna make a stand on the high ground and preach, you better damn well adhere and not make profit from it.

And then many are all too fast to point out that the Greens are not benefitting and profiting from the 401(k) investments in the very products they went to SCOTUS to avoid having to provide based on their religious beliefs. Yo argue that it is the employees- not the Greens- who are benefitting. And yet, the Greens ARE employees and, as such, participate in the 401(k) program! While you seem to only view them as the shareholders of the corporation, you forget that they are also employed by the corporation in the most senior management positions! They are, as much as anyone else drawing a paycheck from Hobby Lobby, employees. thus, if the 401(k) is profiting, then the Greens are profiting. And with 75 percent of the funds included holding investments that would fail the Green’s religious test as stated in their SCOTUS brief, I’ll gladly take the bet from anyone who cares to wager that the Greens are not choosing some of these funds in their 401(k).

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2014/04/01/hobby-lobby-401k-discovered-to-be-investor-in-numerous-abortion-and-contraception-products-while-claiming-religious-objection/

[AU-24 3,128]

NY times piece: Hobby Lobby a company liberals could love!

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/06/opinion/sunday/ross-douthat-a-company-liberals-could-love-.html?_r=0

They pay their uneducated employees $15 per hour, pay their educated management upper middle class wages, in some cases college funding, they give an unbelievable amount to the poor, etc... etc...

Oh but wait, they are Christians that don't want to support abortions They shouldn't even have that choice...right?? What is this America or something?? So we must distort the truth (or just plain lie) and make them look evil or anti-women.

[icanthearyou 4,468]

Per operations normal the Liberal, Mainstream Media refuse to cover the following:

How do employees who work for closely held companies like Hobby Lobby get birth control?

Women who work for Hobby Lobby can still get birth-control pills. The company didn’t object to that, or 15 other types of contraceptives — just the morning after pills and the IUDs because they believe they work after conception and trigger abortions.

http://www.freep.com...n-what-it-means

In other words: Hobby Lobby and other firms/businesses are still providing 16 different forms of Birth Control including "The Pill" They just don't want to pay for abortions, who could blame them?

By the way....The morning after pill, without insurance, cost around $40. I believe a condom cost around $1? So if the condom fails, spend $40 and have your abortion triggered.

If the basic facts were reported (without the liberal, distorted truth, bias) there would be allot less controversy!!

Ya but the whole stand on abortions seems kind of silly when you invest in corporations that actually research and produce these drugs, and your products that you sell are mostly made and come from a country that actually is known for forced abortions by the government.

We won't support them for employee's regardless of their health, but by God we won't let their purpose stop us from lining our pockets though.

Hobby Lobby let's their employees choose what Mutual Funds they want their 401k going to. Yes, some of the funds support certain kind of abortion. Would you rather Hobby Lobby say: You can't choose this fund or that fund because of abortion??

This just further shows how open Hobby Lobby is and how bias the media that cover them are!!

Possibly. However, you did not address China. Perhaps, morality takes a backseat to economic interests?

Hugh?

Who is Hugh?

[AU-24 3,128]

Next thing you know a company may say they support the biblical definition of marriage (Bill Clinton's definition as well) http://www.frc.org/papers/doma-101

This freedom should be taken from them at all costs!! I mean if they don't agree with the liberal agenda, be gone with them!!

[Texan4Auburn 1,626]

Per operations normal the Liberal, Mainstream Media refuse to cover the following:

How do employees who work for closely held companies like Hobby Lobby get birth control?

Women who work for Hobby Lobby can still get birth-control pills. The company didn’t object to that, or 15 other types of contraceptives — just the morning after pills and the IUDs because they believe they work after conception and trigger abortions.

http://www.freep.com...n-what-it-means

In other words: Hobby Lobby and other firms/businesses are still providing 16 different forms of Birth Control including "The Pill" They just don't want to pay for abortions, who could blame them?

By the way....The morning after pill, without insurance, cost around $40. I believe a condom cost around $1? So if the condom fails, spend $40 and have your abortion triggered.

If the basic facts were reported (without the liberal, distorted truth, bias) there would be allot less controversy!!

Ya but the whole stand on abortions seems kind of silly when you invest in corporations that actually research and produce these drugs, and your products that you sell are mostly made and come from a country that actually is known for forced abortions by the government.

We won't support them for employee's regardless of their health, but by God we won't let their purpose stop us from lining our pockets though.

Hobby Lobby let's their employees choose what Mutual Funds they want their 401k going to. Yes, some of the funds support certain kind of abortion. Would you rather Hobby Lobby say: You can't choose this fund or that fund because of abortion??

This just further shows how open Hobby Lobby is and how bias the media that cover them are!!

Possibly. However, you did not address China. Perhaps, morality takes a backseat to economic interests?

Hugh?

Who is Hugh?

The accountant

[icanthearyou 4,468]

Per operations normal the Liberal, Mainstream Media refuse to cover the following:

How do employees who work for closely held companies like Hobby Lobby get birth control?

Women who work for Hobby Lobby can still get birth-control pills. The company didn’t object to that, or 15 other types of contraceptives — just the morning after pills and the IUDs because they believe they work after conception and trigger abortions.

http://www.freep.com...n-what-it-means

In other words: Hobby Lobby and other firms/businesses are still providing 16 different forms of Birth Control including "The Pill" They just don't want to pay for abortions, who could blame them?

By the way....The morning after pill, without insurance, cost around $40. I believe a condom cost around $1? So if the condom fails, spend $40 and have your abortion triggered.

If the basic facts were reported (without the liberal, distorted truth, bias) there would be allot less controversy!!

Ya but the whole stand on abortions seems kind of silly when you invest in corporations that actually research and produce these drugs, and your products that you sell are mostly made and come from a country that actually is known for forced abortions by the government.

We won't support them for employee's regardless of their health, but by God we won't let their purpose stop us from lining our pockets though.

Hobby Lobby let's their employees choose what Mutual Funds they want their 401k going to. Yes, some of the funds support certain kind of abortion. Would you rather Hobby Lobby say: You can't choose this fund or that fund because of abortion??

This just further shows how open Hobby Lobby is and how bias the media that cover them are!!

Possibly. However, you did not address China. Perhaps, morality takes a backseat to economic interests?

Hugh?

Who is Hugh?

The accountant

Huh?

[AU-24 3,128]

Per operations normal the Liberal, Mainstream Media refuse to cover the following:

How do employees who work for closely held companies like Hobby Lobby get birth control?

Women who work for Hobby Lobby can still get birth-control pills. The company didn’t object to that, or 15 other types of contraceptives — just the morning after pills and the IUDs because they believe they work after conception and trigger abortions.

http://www.freep.com...n-what-it-means

In other words: Hobby Lobby and other firms/businesses are still providing 16 different forms of Birth Control including "The Pill" They just don't want to pay for abortions, who could blame them?

By the way....The morning after pill, without insurance, cost around $40. I believe a condom cost around $1? So if the condom fails, spend $40 and have your abortion triggered.

If the basic facts were reported (without the liberal, distorted truth, bias) there would be allot less controversy!!

Ya but the whole stand on abortions seems kind of silly when you invest in corporations that actually research and produce these drugs, and your products that you sell are mostly made and come from a country that actually is known for forced abortions by the government.

We won't support them for employee's regardless of their health, but by God we won't let their purpose stop us from lining our pockets though.

Hobby Lobby let's their employees choose what Mutual Funds they want their 401k going to. Yes, some of the funds support certain kind of abortion. Would you rather Hobby Lobby say: You can't choose this fund or that fund because of abortion??

This just further shows how open Hobby Lobby is and how bias the media that cover them are!!

Possibly. However, you did not address China. Perhaps, morality takes a backseat to economic interests?

Hugh?

Who is Hugh?

The accountant

Huh?

Darn ipad!

[Texan4Auburn 1,626]

Hobby Lobby imports billions of dollars of products from China. Don't take my word for it. Walk into its stores and turn its items over and you'll clearly see: "Made In China."

Now there are those that have mentioned this specific hypocrisy before, but I would like to go further. Let's look at how China, its government, and specifically its treatment of its people is completely contrary not only to the very issues that Hobby Lobby claims to have issues with, but that the Bible clearly speaks out against as well.

We all know that China is a communist nation, and doesn't allow its people to have the freedom to worship freely. According to a new annual report from ChinaAid (a Texas based organization that monitors religious freedom), persecution of Chinese Christians not only continues, but increased this past year. There were 134 cases of persecution reported; many people fear retaliation if they make claims of their abuse.

And although the one child policy was technically lifted, abandonment and selective killing of female babies continues. Forced abortion, although technically frowned upon by the government, is still a regular practice in China. Is the disruption of creation of life only relevant as a Christian when it's an American life?

And what about the factories those people work at in China, those factories that make the products Hobby Lobby buys and then sells. The people of China who work in factories are exposed to a variety of dangerous working conditions. They are victims of unfair calculations of work time and low wages. Their employers often fail to pay for insurance or pay for injuries that are work related.

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/leslie-marshall/2014/03/26/hobby-lobbys-china-hypocrisy