ISIS or ISIL do not exist any longer

[AUFAN78 4,130]

Since you can grasp the gravity of an Islamic state, please, do explain how this equates to expanded terrorism. These people will have their hands full running a country. Will they not? Please, explain what this means and, what we should do in response. You're the expert.

If I'm not suppose to be afraid, why are pushing the panic button?

I currently do not reside in Jordan or Israel. I'm not being smug. I just don't believe we should package up more money, troops, weapons and, head on over to save the Middle East. AGAIN. I think we've screwed it up enough for now.

I'm not sure you grasp the gravity of the Islamic state. You do realize your savior is in favor of aide right? You do realize military intelligence experts, military strategist, foreign policy experts, consultants on the ME, etc. etc. disagree with you right? Why are you so certain you are right and these experts are wrong? Are you an expert in hiding or a third grader gone wild?

Are you attempting to frame the discussion in rhetoric? I was hoping for a more meaningful dialogue.

When you say, my "savior", are you referring to the President? That is meaningless rhetoric. You need to have that sort of discussion with Blue. He loves that stuff.

Do I understand that you support the President in sending aid to Iraq? I do not.

The question has been posed to you more than once in multiple threads, yet you respond with 3rd grade drivel. Sorry, I am not interested in continuing this elementary dialogue. If you finally answer the question we can discuss. BTW, I am not holding my breath.

I answered your question. Here it is: "No, I am not an expert. My posts are based on opinion formed by observing the lives and money already wasted in Iraq."

I provided detailed answers in several threads. I apologize if you do not like my opinions.

I am doing my best to engage you in a meaningful discussion. I apologize again if I have offended you.

First, you've not offended me and I got carried away with my 3rd grade remarks, so my apologies as well. I do have a problem with your constant childish response to others that may not share your views. JMHO. But hey, it is your prerogative, rock on.

Finally, I simply asked why you (and others) felt your way was better than experts? I assume you answer was "it is my opinion" and I have no problem with that. I do not have all the intel to make an intelligent opinion, so I won't. But I definitely won't chastise someone who does.

[AURaptor 1,137]

Excuse me for butting in - are you being intentionally obtuse for the sake of an argument?

Yes, he is. It's called being a troll. His intent is to mock and ridicule pretty much anything that serious , mature folks care to discuss. Just to get attention.

And it's working.

[icanthearyou 4,468]

Since you can grasp the gravity of an Islamic state, please, do explain how this equates to expanded terrorism. These people will have their hands full running a country. Will they not? Please, explain what this means and, what we should do in response. You're the expert.

If I'm not suppose to be afraid, why are pushing the panic button?

I currently do not reside in Jordan or Israel. I'm not being smug. I just don't believe we should package up more money, troops, weapons and, head on over to save the Middle East. AGAIN. I think we've screwed it up enough for now.

I'm not sure you grasp the gravity of the Islamic state. You do realize your savior is in favor of aide right? You do realize military intelligence experts, military strategist, foreign policy experts, consultants on the ME, etc. etc. disagree with you right? Why are you so certain you are right and these experts are wrong? Are you an expert in hiding or a third grader gone wild?

Are you attempting to frame the discussion in rhetoric? I was hoping for a more meaningful dialogue.

When you say, my "savior", are you referring to the President? That is meaningless rhetoric. You need to have that sort of discussion with Blue. He loves that stuff.

Do I understand that you support the President in sending aid to Iraq? I do not.

The question has been posed to you more than once in multiple threads, yet you respond with 3rd grade drivel. Sorry, I am not interested in continuing this elementary dialogue. If you finally answer the question we can discuss. BTW, I am not holding my breath.

I answered your question. Here it is: "No, I am not an expert. My posts are based on opinion formed by observing the lives and money already wasted in Iraq."

I provided detailed answers in several threads. I apologize if you do not like my opinions.

I am doing my best to engage you in a meaningful discussion. I apologize again if I have offended you.

First, you've not offended me and I got carried away with my 3rd grade remarks, so my apologies as well. I do have a problem with your constant childish response to others that may not share your views. JMHO. But hey, it is your prerogative, rock on.

Finally, I simply asked why you (and others) felt your way was better than experts? I assume you answer was "it is my opinion" and I have no problem with that. I do not have all the intel to make an intelligent opinion, so I won't. But I definitely won't chastise someone who does.

I understand your feelings. I will always engage in meaningful discussion. I wish we had more. However, if someone wants to spew meaningless rhetoric, I'm not really interested.

[Strychnine 1,808]

Since you can grasp the gravity of an Islamic state, please, do explain how this equates to expanded terrorism. These people will have their hands full running a country. Will they not? Please, explain what this means and, what we should do in response. You're the expert.

If I'm not suppose to be afraid, why are pushing the panic button?

I currently do not reside in Jordan or Israel. I'm not being smug. I just don't believe we should package up more money, troops, weapons and, head on over to save the Middle East. AGAIN. I think we've screwed it up enough for now.

I'm not sure you grasp the gravity of the Islamic state. You do realize your savior is in favor of aide right? You do realize military intelligence experts, military strategist, foreign policy experts, consultants on the ME, etc. etc. disagree with you right? Why are you so certain you are right and these experts are wrong? Are you an expert in hiding or a third grader gone wild?

Are you attempting to frame the discussion in rhetoric? I was hoping for a more meaningful dialogue.

When you say, my "savior", are you referring to the President? That is meaningless rhetoric. You need to have that sort of discussion with Blue. He loves that stuff.

Do I understand that you support the President in sending aid to Iraq? I do not.

The question has been posed to you more than once in multiple threads, yet you respond with 3rd grade drivel. Sorry, I am not interested in continuing this elementary dialogue. If you finally answer the question we can discuss. BTW, I am not holding my breath.

I answered your question. Here it is: "No, I am not an expert. My posts are based on opinion formed by observing the lives and money already wasted in Iraq."

I provided detailed answers in several threads. I apologize if you do not like my opinions.

I am doing my best to engage you in a meaningful discussion. I apologize again if I have offended you.

First, you've not offended me and I got carried away with my 3rd grade remarks, so my apologies as well. I do have a problem with your constant childish response to others that may not share your views. JMHO. But hey, it is your prerogative, rock on.

Finally, I simply asked why you (and others) felt your way was better than experts? I assume you answer was "it is my opinion" and I have no problem with that. I do not have all the intel to make an intelligent opinion, so I won't. But I definitely won't chastise someone who does.

I expect military strategists and consultants to suggest intervention and eventually war. It is their nature, and I do not expect them to contradict it. In this particular region, the only thing our intervention has accomplished is make us a primary target of some rather annoying people. The notion that more intervention is going to somehow produce a positive from a negative is utterly alien logic to me.

If there were some clearly defined "good guys" for us to rally behind, then I would probably be all for it. However, the closest thing to "good guys" in these areas is the people stuck in the middle that have this crazy notion about not getting killed in the latest rounds of a long pattern of violence. If there is to be outside intervention, let the other countries in the region deal with it. I do not know whether leaving the region alone will cause their terrorists to eventually leave us alone or not, and neither does anyone else. I do know that continuing to intervene in the region definitely will not. Solving the world's problems is not the responsibility of the United States, and it is about time we came to terms with that. We can, quite simply, no longer afford it.

[japantiger 4,104]

There seem to be three themes rolling thru this thread:

• Why does it matter that ISIS has declared a caliphate; a Muslim nation
  
• There are no good guys to support; so I don't want to be there
  
• The only reason these guys fight us is because we intervened there
  

Let me know if I missed anything; but I think these three represent the majority of the counters to the context of the original post.

To point one; A muslim nation (with the ISIS disposition) that controls 1/3 to 1/2 of Iraq would also control a large portion of Iraqi oil production...thus driving up oil prices. The near term impact is expected to be another $10 barrel and is contributing to the current spike in crude prices and resulting impact on gas prices. 2nd, If ISIS can successfully rally other Muslim nations to their cause by declaring a Caliphate; it will make any battle waged by either the existing Iraqi government or others a battle against Islam...at least their brand of Islam. This is the only reason Iran is so graciously agreed to send folks into Iraq to "help". Destabilizing Iraq in this way would threaten other regimes. This will in turn attract other bad guys into the region placing further pressure on Baghdad and Iraq as a nation. These new bad guys then threaten Iran, Jordan, etc. Last point, most of Iraqi oil production is in the South...so to have a long term major impact on oil prices; the supplies in the South will have to be threatened. Not likely in the near term; more likely in the long term if they can rally outside support.

Point 2: there's only one real good guy in the region; Israel. Our policies should be based on 1) supporting Israel, our only ally in the region 2) an adult understanding that there is never likely to be a good guy at the helm of any of the other regimes in the region. Our interests in the region should be based on "our interests"; independent of who is at the head of one of the other regimes.

Point 3: I really shouldn't have to address this given history. We weren't there and they attacked us in New York. Carrying this back in time; Islam has always had a beef with the West. It started with them attacking Europe in the 7th century. What we do or don't do won't change this. We have to do what is best for our interests...they will not like it no matter what we do.

[homersapien 12,172]

Since you can grasp the gravity of an Islamic state, please, do explain how this equates to expanded terrorism. These people will have their hands full running a country. Will they not? Please, explain what this means and, what we should do in response. You're the expert.

If I'm not suppose to be afraid, why are pushing the panic button?

I currently do not reside in Jordan or Israel. I'm not being smug. I just don't believe we should package up more money, troops, weapons and, head on over to save the Middle East. AGAIN. I think we've screwed it up enough for now.

I'm not sure you grasp the gravity of the Islamic state. You do realize your savior is in favor of aide right? You do realize military intelligence experts, military strategist, foreign policy experts, consultants on the ME, etc. etc. disagree with you right? Why are you so certain you are right and these experts are wrong? Are you an expert in hiding or a third grader gone wild?

I doubt Jesus is in favor of aiding a war.

Are these the old experts who told us to go into Iraq in the first place? Are these new and improved experts? Who are these experts?

No, I am not an expert. My posts are based on opinion formed by observing the lives and money already wasted in Iraq. Are you an expert?

I don't really care who they are. If your savior believes in them they must be legit right?

I'm sorry but, I do not understand the reference to Jesus.

Why is it when confronted with facts and legitimate questions the posse deflects with the old bait and switch only to respond with mindless drivel?

Yet more irony blindness.

[homersapien 12,172]

Since you can grasp the gravity of an Islamic state, please, do explain how this equates to expanded terrorism. These people will have their hands full running a country. Will they not? Please, explain what this means and, what we should do in response. You're the expert.

If I'm not suppose to be afraid, why are pushing the panic button?

I currently do not reside in Jordan or Israel. I'm not being smug. I just don't believe we should package up more money, troops, weapons and, head on over to save the Middle East. AGAIN. I think we've screwed it up enough for now.

I'm not sure you grasp the gravity of the Islamic state. You do realize your savior is in favor of aide right? You do realize military intelligence experts, military strategist, foreign policy experts, consultants on the ME, etc. etc. disagree with you right? Why are you so certain you are right and these experts are wrong? Are you an expert in hiding or a third grader gone wild?

I doubt Jesus is in favor of aiding a war.

Are these the old experts who told us to go into Iraq in the first place? Are these new and improved experts? Who are these experts?

No, I am not an expert. My posts are based on opinion formed by observing the lives and money already wasted in Iraq. Are you an expert?

I don't really care who they are. If your savior believes in them they must be legit right?

I'm sorry but, I do not understand the reference to Jesus.

Why is it when confronted with facts and legitimate questions the posse deflects with the old bait and switch only to respond with mindless drivel?

I do not understand the question.

Most 3rd graders wouldn't.

No doubt. :-\ How about rephrasing it for us adults?

[homersapien 12,172]

Since you can grasp the gravity of an Islamic state, please, do explain how this equates to expanded terrorism. These people will have their hands full running a country. Will they not? Please, explain what this means and, what we should do in response. You're the expert.

If I'm not suppose to be afraid, why are pushing the panic button?

I currently do not reside in Jordan or Israel. I'm not being smug. I just don't believe we should package up more money, troops, weapons and, head on over to save the Middle East. AGAIN. I think we've screwed it up enough for now.

I'm not sure you grasp the gravity of the Islamic state. You do realize your savior is in favor of aide right? You do realize military intelligence experts, military strategist, foreign policy experts, consultants on the ME, etc. etc. disagree with you right? Why are you so certain you are right and these experts are wrong? Are you an expert in hiding or a third grader gone wild?

Are you attempting to frame the discussion in rhetoric? I was hoping for a more meaningful dialogue.

When you say, my "savior", are you referring to the President? That is meaningless rhetoric. You need to have that sort of discussion with Blue. He loves that stuff.

Do I understand that you support the President in sending aid to Iraq? I do not.

The question has been posed to you more than once in multiple threads, yet you respond with 3rd grade drivel. Sorry, I am not interested in continuing this elementary dialogue. If you finally answer the question we can discuss. BTW, I am not holding my breath.

I answered your question. Here it is: "No, I am not an expert. My posts are based on opinion formed by observing the lives and money already wasted in Iraq."

I provided detailed answers in several threads. I apologize if you do not like my opinions.

I am doing my best to engage you in a meaningful discussion. I apologize again if I have offended you.

First, you've not offended me and I got carried away with my 3rd grade remarks, so my apologies as well. I do have a problem with your constant childish response to others that may not share your views. JMHO. But hey, it is your prerogative, rock on.

Finally, I simply asked why you (and others) felt your way was better than experts? I assume you answer was "it is my opinion" and I have no problem with that. I do not have all the intel to make an intelligent opinion, so I won't. But I definitely won't chastise someone who does.

You seem to have an inordinate respect for (unnamed) "experts" since you keep bringing them up. It was supposed "experts" that pushed for the invasion of Iraq in the first place. Obviously, not all experts are correct, much less the same.

[homersapien 12,172]

There seem to be three themes rolling thru this thread:

• Why does it matter that ISIS has declared a caliphate; a Muslim nation
  
• There are no good guys to support; so I don't want to be there
  
• The only reason these guys fight us is because we intervened there
  

Let me know if I missed anything; but I think these three represent the majority of the counters to the context of the original post.

To point one; A muslim nation (with the ISIS disposition) that controls 1/3 to 1/2 of Iraq would also control a large portion of Iraqi oil production...thus driving up oil prices. The near term impact is expected to be another $10 barrel and is contributing to the current spike in crude prices and resulting impact on gas prices.

2nd, If ISIS can successfully rally other Muslim nations to their cause by declaring a Caliphate; it will make any battle waged by either the existing Iraqi government or others a battle against Islam...at least their brand of Islam. This is the only reason Iran is so graciously agreed to send folks into Iraq to "help". Destabilizing Iraq in this way would threaten other regimes. This will in turn attract other bad guys into the region placing further pressure on Baghdad and Iraq as a nation. These new bad guys then threaten Iran, Jordan, etc.

Last point, most of Iraqi oil production is in the South...so to have a long term major impact on oil prices; the supplies in the South will have to be threatened. Not likely in the near term; more likely in the long term if they can rally outside support.

First, thanks for a thoughtful post. It's refreshing.

Point one: Well, it is their oil. I don't see how we as a country have the right to kill people in order to make our SUV's financially practical. And they can't eat it. Sooner or later they will have to put it on the market or there's no point in having it.

Point two: This is a problem for the people and countries of the ME. If the people in the various countries desire to live under a Islamic caliphate, then who are we to tell them they cannot determine the sort of government they want?

On a more practical level, I am betting that such a government will have limited appeal, which may very well mean there will be continued sectarian conflict in the area. In other words, business as usual.

Longer term, the freedom and prosperity of democratic governments will always be contrasted with this caliphate. This will provide an alternative system for the people to aspire to and for us to support. We should treat such a government the same way we treated communism - contain it until it collapses on it's own accord.

You are generally correct about Israel, except that Israel needs to clean up their own act regarding the Palestinians. Until they incorporate all segments of the people that live there as equal citizens, an alliance with Israel will serve to place us in opposition to many of the Muslims in the area whether we want it or not.

Last point: see responses to point 1.

[Strychnine 1,808]

There seem to be three themes rolling thru this thread:

• Why does it matter that ISIS has declared a caliphate; a Muslim nation
  
• There are no good guys to support; so I don't want to be there
  
• The only reason these guys fight us is because we intervened there
  

Let me know if I missed anything; but I think these three represent the majority of the counters to the context of the original post.

To point one; A muslim nation (with the ISIS disposition) that controls 1/3 to 1/2 of Iraq would also control a large portion of Iraqi oil production...thus driving up oil prices. The near term impact is expected to be another $10 barrel and is contributing to the current spike in crude prices and resulting impact on gas prices. 2nd, If ISIS can successfully rally other Muslim nations to their cause by declaring a Caliphate; it will make any battle waged by either the existing Iraqi government or others a battle against Islam...at least their brand of Islam. This is the only reason Iran is so graciously agreed to send folks into Iraq to "help". Destabilizing Iraq in this way would threaten other regimes. This will in turn attract other bad guys into the region placing further pressure on Baghdad and Iraq as a nation. These new bad guys then threaten Iran, Jordan, etc. Last point, most of Iraqi oil production is in the South...so to have a long term major impact on oil prices; the supplies in the South will have to be threatened. Not likely in the near term; more likely in the long term if they can rally outside support.

Point 2: there's only one real good guy in the region; Israel. Our policies should be based on 1) supporting Israel, our only ally in the region 2) an adult understanding that there is never likely to be a good guy at the helm of any of the other regimes in the region. Our interests in the region should be based on "our interests"; independent of who is at the head of one of the other regimes.

Point 3: I really shouldn't have to address this given history. We weren't there and they attacked us in New York. Carrying this back in time; Islam has always had a beef with the West. It started with them attacking Europe in the 7th century. What we do or don't do won't change this. We have to do what is best for our interests...they will not like it no matter what we do.

Thank you. I appreciate a post that does not have "this administration is SO awful!" as its fundamental thesis statement, regardless of whether I agree or not.

Point 1 is precisely why I would rather we leave the other countries in the region (which are Islamic) to deal with it. It's a little bit more difficult to convince people to wage a jihad against the infidels, when the infidels in question are fellow Muslims. Enough of our blood and money has been spent on our "interests" in the region. As Homer said, if they desire to live under an Islamic Caliphate (as would be evidenced by their unwillingness to oppose), then that is their business. It is indeed their oil, and they are free to do with it as they please. We are free to not buy it.

Point 2 is definitely part of our problem. The regional perception of America as the Israelis' lapdog does not win us any favor with the people. Granted, I doubt there is anything we can actually do about that at this point, but it certainly does not help. I would say that we should probably be more forceful with Israel to the end of creating a meaningful solution to the Palestinian issue. Israel would ultimately like to see that resolved as well, but it has indeed become a complicated issue.

Point 3 leaves out an important bit of history. Did they not get the notion of imperial expansion from the Roman and later Byzantine Empires? 9/11 was a symbolic attack, a strike at the financial and military heart of the American imperialists. An actual troop presence is not the only kind of American intervention required to arouse their wrath. We were very much involved in what was perceived to be devastating sanctions against Iraq. We were still based in the region.

[AUFAN78 4,130]

Since you can grasp the gravity of an Islamic state, please, do explain how this equates to expanded terrorism. These people will have their hands full running a country. Will they not? Please, explain what this means and, what we should do in response. You're the expert.

If I'm not suppose to be afraid, why are pushing the panic button?

I currently do not reside in Jordan or Israel. I'm not being smug. I just don't believe we should package up more money, troops, weapons and, head on over to save the Middle East. AGAIN. I think we've screwed it up enough for now.

I'm not sure you grasp the gravity of the Islamic state. You do realize your savior is in favor of aide right? You do realize military intelligence experts, military strategist, foreign policy experts, consultants on the ME, etc. etc. disagree with you right? Why are you so certain you are right and these experts are wrong? Are you an expert in hiding or a third grader gone wild?

I doubt Jesus is in favor of aiding a war.

Are these the old experts who told us to go into Iraq in the first place? Are these new and improved experts? Who are these experts?

No, I am not an expert. My posts are based on opinion formed by observing the lives and money already wasted in Iraq. Are you an expert?

I don't really care who they are. If your savior believes in them they must be legit right?

I'm sorry but, I do not understand the reference to Jesus.

Why is it when confronted with facts and legitimate questions the posse deflects with the old bait and switch only to respond with mindless drivel?

Yet more irony blindness.

Thank you oh hugger with blinders on.

[AUFAN78 4,130]

Since you can grasp the gravity of an Islamic state, please, do explain how this equates to expanded terrorism. These people will have their hands full running a country. Will they not? Please, explain what this means and, what we should do in response. You're the expert.

If I'm not suppose to be afraid, why are pushing the panic button?

I currently do not reside in Jordan or Israel. I'm not being smug. I just don't believe we should package up more money, troops, weapons and, head on over to save the Middle East. AGAIN. I think we've screwed it up enough for now.

I'm not sure you grasp the gravity of the Islamic state. You do realize your savior is in favor of aide right? You do realize military intelligence experts, military strategist, foreign policy experts, consultants on the ME, etc. etc. disagree with you right? Why are you so certain you are right and these experts are wrong? Are you an expert in hiding or a third grader gone wild?

I doubt Jesus is in favor of aiding a war.

Are these the old experts who told us to go into Iraq in the first place? Are these new and improved experts? Who are these experts?

No, I am not an expert. My posts are based on opinion formed by observing the lives and money already wasted in Iraq. Are you an expert?

I don't really care who they are. If your savior believes in them they must be legit right?

I'm sorry but, I do not understand the reference to Jesus.

Why is it when confronted with facts and legitimate questions the posse deflects with the old bait and switch only to respond with mindless drivel?

I do not understand the question.

Most 3rd graders wouldn't.

No doubt. :-\ How about rephrasing it for us adults?

What? and leave you out?

[AUFAN78 4,130]

Since you can grasp the gravity of an Islamic state, please, do explain how this equates to expanded terrorism. These people will have their hands full running a country. Will they not? Please, explain what this means and, what we should do in response. You're the expert.

If I'm not suppose to be afraid, why are pushing the panic button?

I currently do not reside in Jordan or Israel. I'm not being smug. I just don't believe we should package up more money, troops, weapons and, head on over to save the Middle East. AGAIN. I think we've screwed it up enough for now.

I'm not sure you grasp the gravity of the Islamic state. You do realize your savior is in favor of aide right? You do realize military intelligence experts, military strategist, foreign policy experts, consultants on the ME, etc. etc. disagree with you right? Why are you so certain you are right and these experts are wrong? Are you an expert in hiding or a third grader gone wild?

Are you attempting to frame the discussion in rhetoric? I was hoping for a more meaningful dialogue.

When you say, my "savior", are you referring to the President? That is meaningless rhetoric. You need to have that sort of discussion with Blue. He loves that stuff.

Do I understand that you support the President in sending aid to Iraq? I do not.

The question has been posed to you more than once in multiple threads, yet you respond with 3rd grade drivel. Sorry, I am not interested in continuing this elementary dialogue. If you finally answer the question we can discuss. BTW, I am not holding my breath.

I answered your question. Here it is: "No, I am not an expert. My posts are based on opinion formed by observing the lives and money already wasted in Iraq."

I provided detailed answers in several threads. I apologize if you do not like my opinions.

I am doing my best to engage you in a meaningful discussion. I apologize again if I have offended you.

First, you've not offended me and I got carried away with my 3rd grade remarks, so my apologies as well. I do have a problem with your constant childish response to others that may not share your views. JMHO. But hey, it is your prerogative, rock on.

Finally, I simply asked why you (and others) felt your way was better than experts? I assume you answer was "it is my opinion" and I have no problem with that. I do not have all the intel to make an intelligent opinion, so I won't. But I definitely won't chastise someone who does.

You seem to have an inordinate respect for (unnamed) "experts" since you keep bringing them up. It was supposed "experts" that pushed for the invasion of Iraq in the first place. Obviously, not all experts are correct, much less the same.

Congrats! You are now in the running for "dumb post of the day" my good friend. :-\

[Tigermike 3,657]

Since you can grasp the gravity of an Islamic state, please, do explain how this equates to expanded terrorism. These people will have their hands full running a country. Will they not? Please, explain what this means and, what we should do in response. You're the expert.

If I'm not suppose to be afraid, why are pushing the panic button?

I currently do not reside in Jordan or Israel. I'm not being smug. I just don't believe we should package up more money, troops, weapons and, head on over to save the Middle East. AGAIN. I think we've screwed it up enough for now.

I'm not sure you grasp the gravity of the Islamic state. You do realize your savior is in favor of aide right? You do realize military intelligence experts, military strategist, foreign policy experts, consultants on the ME, etc. etc. disagree with you right? Why are you so certain you are right and these experts are wrong? Are you an expert in hiding or a third grader gone wild?

I doubt Jesus is in favor of aiding a war.

Are these the old experts who told us to go into Iraq in the first place? Are these new and improved experts? Who are these experts?

No, I am not an expert. My posts are based on opinion formed by observing the lives and money already wasted in Iraq. Are you an expert?

I don't really care who they are. If your savior believes in them they must be legit right?

I'm sorry but, I do not understand the reference to Jesus.

Why is it when confronted with facts and legitimate questions the posse deflects with the old bait and switch only to respond with mindless drivel?

I do not understand the question.

Most 3rd graders wouldn't.

No doubt. :-\ How about rephrasing it for us adults?

What do your parents post here?

[homersapien 12,172]

Since you can grasp the gravity of an Islamic state, please, do explain how this equates to expanded terrorism. These people will have their hands full running a country. Will they not? Please, explain what this means and, what we should do in response. You're the expert.

If I'm not suppose to be afraid, why are pushing the panic button?

I currently do not reside in Jordan or Israel. I'm not being smug. I just don't believe we should package up more money, troops, weapons and, head on over to save the Middle East. AGAIN. I think we've screwed it up enough for now.

I'm not sure you grasp the gravity of the Islamic state. You do realize your savior is in favor of aide right? You do realize military intelligence experts, military strategist, foreign policy experts, consultants on the ME, etc. etc. disagree with you right? Why are you so certain you are right and these experts are wrong? Are you an expert in hiding or a third grader gone wild?

I doubt Jesus is in favor of aiding a war.

Are these the old experts who told us to go into Iraq in the first place? Are these new and improved experts? Who are these experts?

No, I am not an expert. My posts are based on opinion formed by observing the lives and money already wasted in Iraq. Are you an expert?

I don't really care who they are. If your savior believes in them they must be legit right?

I'm sorry but, I do not understand the reference to Jesus.

Why is it when confronted with facts and legitimate questions the posse deflects with the old bait and switch only to respond with mindless drivel?

I do not understand the question.

Most 3rd graders wouldn't.

No doubt. :-\ How about rephrasing it for us adults?

What? and leave you out?

Just think of me as a "special" adult.

[AUFAN78 4,130]

Since you can grasp the gravity of an Islamic state, please, do explain how this equates to expanded terrorism. These people will have their hands full running a country. Will they not? Please, explain what this means and, what we should do in response. You're the expert.

If I'm not suppose to be afraid, why are pushing the panic button?

I currently do not reside in Jordan or Israel. I'm not being smug. I just don't believe we should package up more money, troops, weapons and, head on over to save the Middle East. AGAIN. I think we've screwed it up enough for now.

I'm not sure you grasp the gravity of the Islamic state. You do realize your savior is in favor of aide right? You do realize military intelligence experts, military strategist, foreign policy experts, consultants on the ME, etc. etc. disagree with you right? Why are you so certain you are right and these experts are wrong? Are you an expert in hiding or a third grader gone wild?

I doubt Jesus is in favor of aiding a war.

Are these the old experts who told us to go into Iraq in the first place? Are these new and improved experts? Who are these experts?

No, I am not an expert. My posts are based on opinion formed by observing the lives and money already wasted in Iraq. Are you an expert?

I don't really care who they are. If your savior believes in them they must be legit right?

I'm sorry but, I do not understand the reference to Jesus.

Why is it when confronted with facts and legitimate questions the posse deflects with the old bait and switch only to respond with mindless drivel?

I do not understand the question.

Most 3rd graders wouldn't.

No doubt. :-\ How about rephrasing it for us adults?

What? and leave you out?

Just think of me as a "special" adult.

You are special Homey. Don't ever let anyone tell you differently.

[homersapien 12,172]

Since you can grasp the gravity of an Islamic state, please, do explain how this equates to expanded terrorism. These people will have their hands full running a country. Will they not? Please, explain what this means and, what we should do in response. You're the expert.

If I'm not suppose to be afraid, why are pushing the panic button?

I currently do not reside in Jordan or Israel. I'm not being smug. I just don't believe we should package up more money, troops, weapons and, head on over to save the Middle East. AGAIN. I think we've screwed it up enough for now.

I'm not sure you grasp the gravity of the Islamic state. You do realize your savior is in favor of aide right? You do realize military intelligence experts, military strategist, foreign policy experts, consultants on the ME, etc. etc. disagree with you right? Why are you so certain you are right and these experts are wrong? Are you an expert in hiding or a third grader gone wild?

Are you attempting to frame the discussion in rhetoric? I was hoping for a more meaningful dialogue.

When you say, my "savior", are you referring to the President? That is meaningless rhetoric. You need to have that sort of discussion with Blue. He loves that stuff.

Do I understand that you support the President in sending aid to Iraq? I do not.

The question has been posed to you more than once in multiple threads, yet you respond with 3rd grade drivel. Sorry, I am not interested in continuing this elementary dialogue. If you finally answer the question we can discuss. BTW, I am not holding my breath.

I answered your question. Here it is: "No, I am not an expert. My posts are based on opinion formed by observing the lives and money already wasted in Iraq."

I provided detailed answers in several threads. I apologize if you do not like my opinions.

I am doing my best to engage you in a meaningful discussion. I apologize again if I have offended you.

First, you've not offended me and I got carried away with my 3rd grade remarks, so my apologies as well. I do have a problem with your constant childish response to others that may not share your views. JMHO. But hey, it is your prerogative, rock on.

Finally, I simply asked why you (and others) felt your way was better than experts? I assume you answer was "it is my opinion" and I have no problem with that. I do not have all the intel to make an intelligent opinion, so I won't. But I definitely won't chastise someone who does.

You seem to have an inordinate respect for (unnamed) "experts" since you keep bringing them up. It was supposed "experts" that pushed for the invasion of Iraq in the first place. Obviously, not all experts are correct, much less the same.

Congrats! You are now in the running for "dumb post of the day" my good friend. :-\

Seriously?

To be honest, I don't think my chances are good at all. Competition is WAY too good.

[japantiger 4,104]

There seem to be three themes rolling thru this thread:

• Why does it matter that ISIS has declared a caliphate; a Muslim nation
  
• There are no good guys to support; so I don't want to be there
  
• The only reason these guys fight us is because we intervened there
  

Let me know if I missed anything; but I think these three represent the majority of the counters to the context of the original post.

To point one; A muslim nation (with the ISIS disposition) that controls 1/3 to 1/2 of Iraq would also control a large portion of Iraqi oil production...thus driving up oil prices. The near term impact is expected to be another $10 barrel and is contributing to the current spike in crude prices and resulting impact on gas prices.

2nd, If ISIS can successfully rally other Muslim nations to their cause by declaring a Caliphate; it will make any battle waged by either the existing Iraqi government or others a battle against Islam...at least their brand of Islam. This is the only reason Iran is so graciously agreed to send folks into Iraq to "help". Destabilizing Iraq in this way would threaten other regimes. This will in turn attract other bad guys into the region placing further pressure on Baghdad and Iraq as a nation. These new bad guys then threaten Iran, Jordan, etc.

Last point, most of Iraqi oil production is in the South...so to have a long term major impact on oil prices; the supplies in the South will have to be threatened. Not likely in the near term; more likely in the long term if they can rally outside support.

First, thanks for a thoughtful post. It's refreshing.

Point one: Well, it is their oil. I don't see how we as a country have the right to kill people in order to make our SUV's financially practical. And they can't eat it. Sooner or later they will have to put it on the market or there's no point in having it.

Point two: This is a problem for the people and countries of the ME. If the people in the various countries desire to live under a Islamic caliphate, then who are we to tell them they cannot determine the sort of government they want?

On a more practical level, I am betting that such a government will have limited appeal, which may very well mean there will be continued sectarian conflict in the area. In other words, business as usual.

Longer term, the freedom and prosperity of democratic governments will always be contrasted with this caliphate. This will provide an alternative system for the people to aspire to and for us to support. We should treat such a government the same way we treated communism - contain it until it collapses on it's own accord.

You are generally correct about Israel, except that Israel needs to clean up their own act regarding the Palestinians. Until they incorporate all segments of the people that live there as equal citizens, an alliance with Israel will serve to place us in opposition to many of the Muslims in the area whether we want it or not.

Last point: see responses to point 1.

Point 1: well, it is not ISIS oil; it is Iraqi oil. ISIS is capturing it and disrupting global oil markets. Disrupting global oil markets is counter to our interests, It creates higher oil prices which in turn cost jobs; growth, etc. By default, they gain importance which buys them credibility with the other Crazies.

Point 2: the problem is they don't stay within their own boundaries. We weren't doing anything to the Taliban; we even helped them expel the Russians from their country. They paid us back by aiding and supporting their export product; Al Qaeda; to bomb New York, our embassies, etc. See other point; the ability to disrupt markets gives them credibility and creds with their Crazy brethren.

Point 3; The appeal of freedom and democratic governments in the ME is, well, that there is really no appeal for freedom and democratic gov't in the region. I believe I have heard many in favor of not being involved in the region make this point. So that would seem irrelevant to the discussion...they don't exist and they are unlikely to. Whatever we do should be based on this history and reasoned assumptions that flow from likely outcomes...not wishful thinking.

On Israel, your point seems to be we should let our enemies choose our allies...our interests are our interests and our allies are our allies...based on our interests. Further, if we threw the Israeli's under the bus tomorrow; it would do nothing to soothe the Crazies. The "Palestinian problem" was created by the people who tried to wipe Israel off the map. Israel is comprised of 21% Arab Muslims, mostly Sunni but some Shia, who live there as citizens and obey Israeli laws. In fact, this is the only place in the ME where Arab Muslims enjoy civil liberties. If what Israel did mattered at all; Israel would be the poster child for providing civil rights for Muslim Arabs and should be the darlings of the Arab world. Israel is a problem in the ME simply because it exists...there is no circumstance where Israel exists that satisfies the Crazies.

Also, if the status of the Palestinian's really mattered to any Arabs, they would have been accepted in the other Arab nations of the ME; which they have not. The most moderate regime in the region outside Israel, Jordan; still houses them in refugee camps and has done nothing to extend them rights. The whole "problem" is a sham for continued radical ideology; no matter what Israel does. I've been to one of the camps outside Amman...800k people; multiple generations now; no rights; no assimilation; no sympathy...plenty of hypocrisy though.

[AUFAN78 4,130]

Since you can grasp the gravity of an Islamic state, please, do explain how this equates to expanded terrorism. These people will have their hands full running a country. Will they not? Please, explain what this means and, what we should do in response. You're the expert.

If I'm not suppose to be afraid, why are pushing the panic button?

I currently do not reside in Jordan or Israel. I'm not being smug. I just don't believe we should package up more money, troops, weapons and, head on over to save the Middle East. AGAIN. I think we've screwed it up enough for now.

I'm not sure you grasp the gravity of the Islamic state. You do realize your savior is in favor of aide right? You do realize military intelligence experts, military strategist, foreign policy experts, consultants on the ME, etc. etc. disagree with you right? Why are you so certain you are right and these experts are wrong? Are you an expert in hiding or a third grader gone wild?

Are you attempting to frame the discussion in rhetoric? I was hoping for a more meaningful dialogue.

When you say, my "savior", are you referring to the President? That is meaningless rhetoric. You need to have that sort of discussion with Blue. He loves that stuff.

Do I understand that you support the President in sending aid to Iraq? I do not.

The question has been posed to you more than once in multiple threads, yet you respond with 3rd grade drivel. Sorry, I am not interested in continuing this elementary dialogue. If you finally answer the question we can discuss. BTW, I am not holding my breath.

I answered your question. Here it is: "No, I am not an expert. My posts are based on opinion formed by observing the lives and money already wasted in Iraq."

I provided detailed answers in several threads. I apologize if you do not like my opinions.

I am doing my best to engage you in a meaningful discussion. I apologize again if I have offended you.

First, you've not offended me and I got carried away with my 3rd grade remarks, so my apologies as well. I do have a problem with your constant childish response to others that may not share your views. JMHO. But hey, it is your prerogative, rock on.

Finally, I simply asked why you (and others) felt your way was better than experts? I assume you answer was "it is my opinion" and I have no problem with that. I do not have all the intel to make an intelligent opinion, so I won't. But I definitely won't chastise someone who does.

You seem to have an inordinate respect for (unnamed) "experts" since you keep bringing them up. It was supposed "experts" that pushed for the invasion of Iraq in the first place. Obviously, not all experts are correct, much less the same.

Congrats! You are now in the running for "dumb post of the day" my good friend. :-\

Seriously?

To be honest, I don't think my chances are good at all. Competition is WAY too good.

I am sorry to report you were beat out much earlier.

[icanthearyou 4,468]

Since you can grasp the gravity of an Islamic state, please, do explain how this equates to expanded terrorism. These people will have their hands full running a country. Will they not? Please, explain what this means and, what we should do in response. You're the expert.

If I'm not suppose to be afraid, why are pushing the panic button?

I currently do not reside in Jordan or Israel. I'm not being smug. I just don't believe we should package up more money, troops, weapons and, head on over to save the Middle East. AGAIN. I think we've screwed it up enough for now.

I'm not sure you grasp the gravity of the Islamic state. You do realize your savior is in favor of aide right? You do realize military intelligence experts, military strategist, foreign policy experts, consultants on the ME, etc. etc. disagree with you right? Why are you so certain you are right and these experts are wrong? Are you an expert in hiding or a third grader gone wild?

Are you attempting to frame the discussion in rhetoric? I was hoping for a more meaningful dialogue.

When you say, my "savior", are you referring to the President? That is meaningless rhetoric. You need to have that sort of discussion with Blue. He loves that stuff.

Do I understand that you support the President in sending aid to Iraq? I do not.

The question has been posed to you more than once in multiple threads, yet you respond with 3rd grade drivel. Sorry, I am not interested in continuing this elementary dialogue. If you finally answer the question we can discuss. BTW, I am not holding my breath.

I answered your question. Here it is: "No, I am not an expert. My posts are based on opinion formed by observing the lives and money already wasted in Iraq."

I provided detailed answers in several threads. I apologize if you do not like my opinions.

I am doing my best to engage you in a meaningful discussion. I apologize again if I have offended you.

First, you've not offended me and I got carried away with my 3rd grade remarks, so my apologies as well. I do have a problem with your constant childish response to others that may not share your views. JMHO. But hey, it is your prerogative, rock on.

Finally, I simply asked why you (and others) felt your way was better than experts? I assume you answer was "it is my opinion" and I have no problem with that. I do not have all the intel to make an intelligent opinion, so I won't. But I definitely won't chastise someone who does.

You seem to have an inordinate respect for (unnamed) "experts" since you keep bringing them up. It was supposed "experts" that pushed for the invasion of Iraq in the first place. Obviously, not all experts are correct, much less the same.

Congrats! You are now in the running for "dumb post of the day" my good friend. :-\

Seriously?

To be honest, I don't think my chances are good at all. Competition is WAY too good.

I am sorry to report you were beat out much earlier.

There seem to be three themes rolling thru this thread:

• Why does it matter that ISIS has declared a caliphate; a Muslim nation
  
• There are no good guys to support; so I don't want to be there
  
• The only reason these guys fight us is because we intervened there
  

Let me know if I missed anything; but I think these three represent the majority of the counters to the context of the original post.

To point one; A muslim nation (with the ISIS disposition) that controls 1/3 to 1/2 of Iraq would also control a large portion of Iraqi oil production...thus driving up oil prices. The near term impact is expected to be another $10 barrel and is contributing to the current spike in crude prices and resulting impact on gas prices.

2nd, If ISIS can successfully rally other Muslim nations to their cause by declaring a Caliphate; it will make any battle waged by either the existing Iraqi government or others a battle against Islam...at least their brand of Islam. This is the only reason Iran is so graciously agreed to send folks into Iraq to "help". Destabilizing Iraq in this way would threaten other regimes. This will in turn attract other bad guys into the region placing further pressure on Baghdad and Iraq as a nation. These new bad guys then threaten Iran, Jordan, etc.

Last point, most of Iraqi oil production is in the South...so to have a long term major impact on oil prices; the supplies in the South will have to be threatened. Not likely in the near term; more likely in the long term if they can rally outside support.

First, thanks for a thoughtful post. It's refreshing.

Point one: Well, it is their oil. I don't see how we as a country have the right to kill people in order to make our SUV's financially practical. And they can't eat it. Sooner or later they will have to put it on the market or there's no point in having it.

Point two: This is a problem for the people and countries of the ME. If the people in the various countries desire to live under a Islamic caliphate, then who are we to tell them they cannot determine the sort of government they want?

On a more practical level, I am betting that such a government will have limited appeal, which may very well mean there will be continued sectarian conflict in the area. In other words, business as usual.

Longer term, the freedom and prosperity of democratic governments will always be contrasted with this caliphate. This will provide an alternative system for the people to aspire to and for us to support. We should treat such a government the same way we treated communism - contain it until it collapses on it's own accord.

You are generally correct about Israel, except that Israel needs to clean up their own act regarding the Palestinians. Until they incorporate all segments of the people that live there as equal citizens, an alliance with Israel will serve to place us in opposition to many of the Muslims in the area whether we want it or not.

Last point: see responses to point 1.

Point 1: well, it is not ISIS oil; it is Iraqi oil. ISIS is capturing it and disrupting global oil markets. Disrupting global oil markets is counter to our interests, It creates higher oil prices which in turn cost jobs; growth, etc. By default, they gain importance which buys them credibility with the other Crazies.

Point 2: the problem is they don't stay within their own boundaries. We weren't doing anything to the Taliban; we even helped them expel the Russians from their country. They paid us back by aiding and supporting their export product; Al Qaeda; to bomb New York, our embassies, etc. See other point; the ability to disrupt markets gives them credibility and creds with their Crazy brethren.

Point 3; The appeal of freedom and democratic governments in the ME is, well, that there is really no appeal for freedom and democratic gov't in the region. I believe I have heard many in favor of not being involved in the region make this point. So that would seem irrelevant to the discussion...they don't exist and they are unlikely to. Whatever we do should be based on this history and reasoned assumptions that flow from likely outcomes...not wishful thinking.

On Israel, your point seems to be we should let our enemies choose our allies...our interests are our interests and our allies are our allies...based on our interests. Further, if we threw the Israeli's under the bus tomorrow; it would do nothing to soothe the Crazies. The "Palestinian problem" was created by the people who tried to wipe Israel off the map. Israel is comprised of 21% Arab Muslims, mostly Sunni but some Shia, who live there as citizens and obey Israeli laws. In fact, this is the only place in the ME where Arab Muslims enjoy civil liberties. If what Israel did mattered at all; Israel would be the poster child for providing civil rights for Muslim Arabs and should be the darlings of the Arab world. Israel is a problem in the ME simply because it exists...there is no circumstance where Israel exists that satisfies the Crazies.

Also, if the status of the Palestinian's really mattered to any Arabs, they would have been accepted in the other Arab nations of the ME; which they have not. The most moderate regime in the region outside Israel, Jordan; still houses them in refugee camps and has done nothing to extend them rights. The whole "problem" is a sham for continued radical ideology; no matter what Israel does. I've been to one of the camps outside Amman...800k people; multiple generations now; no rights; no assimilation; no sympathy...plenty of hypocrisy though.

Although I do not agree with your broad view, I have to commend you for constructing very good arguments.

You and I see the world in very different ways and, we do not typically agree but, I almost always respect your thoughts.

Question: In your opinion, would Israel benefit from ceding land to the Palestinians and allowing them to rule themselves?

[AFTiger 282]

No. See Gaza

[japantiger 4,104]

Question: In your opinion, would Israel benefit from ceding land to the Palestinians and allowing them to rule themselves?

Doubtful; Israel's problem is that Israel exists. I make this judgement from reading the regions history, my own travels and interactions in the region; and the actions & words of the regional players. The charters of the "Palestinian" groups and the speeches they deliver make their POV on Israel clear. Also, when Israel seeds land; chaos is left in its wake. Hezbollah in charge in Southern Lebanon, Hamas in the Gaza, etc. No matter what Israel does; there is always another border; always another group of Crazies supported by Iran, etc., looking to right old wrongs; real or imagined.

As for the efficacy of the Palestinians, they didn't rule themselves before; and where they have autonomy today, they don't really rule themselves. There are two warring factions (Fatah or the PA; and Hamas) supported by the Crazies, Iran, Egypt alternately; a real rats nest. Since 2005, the PA has controlled the Gaza Strip (Israel pulled out ceding them de-facto control); the most disputed territory; that has done nothing to settle the situation. The PA controls Gaza in name only....Hamas is really in control. The PA and Hamas have been arguing over Gaza control for the better part of a decade and given their very different world views; aren't ever likely to agree.

If this was really about a "state" or peace, you wouldn't have Hamas kidnapping and murdering children this past week in the Gaza; one a US citizen.

[Strychnine 1,808]

Question: In your opinion, would Israel benefit from ceding land to the Palestinians and allowing them to rule themselves?

Doubtful; Israel's problem is that Israel exists. I make this judgement from reading the regions history, my own travels and interactions in the region; and the actions & words of the regional players. The charters of the "Palestinian" groups and the speeches they deliver make their POV on Israel clear. Also, when Israel seeds land; chaos is left in its wake. Hezbollah in charge in Southern Lebanon, Hamas in the Gaza, etc. No matter what Israel does; there is always another border; always another group of Crazies supported by Iran, etc., looking to right old wrongs; real or imagined.

As for the efficacy of the Palestinians, they didn't rule themselves before; and where they have autonomy today, they don't really rule themselves. There are two warring factions (Fatah or the PA; and Hamas) supported by the Crazies, Iran, Egypt alternately; a real rats nest. Since 2005, the PA has controlled the Gaza Strip (Israel pulled out ceding them de-facto control); the most disputed territory; that has done nothing to settle the situation. The PA controls Gaza in name only....Hamas is really in control. The PA and Hamas have been arguing over Gaza control for the better part of a decade and given their very different world views; aren't ever likely to agree.

If this was really about a "state" or peace, you wouldn't have Hamas kidnapping and murdering children this past week in the Gaza; one a US citizen.

Indeed. Ceding land might appease a few groups of Palestinians, but certainly not the agitators in the area. That said, Israel has its own history of provocation, and that has helped the situation none.

Looking at Iran as one of the chief agitators, if one accepts the most moderate interpretation of Iran's position on Israel, it is clear that they consider Israel to be an occupying regime that is not to be compromised with. They think the Palestinians should return, and the current Israelis and Palestinians choose their system of government through referendums. This position guarantees inflexibility on both sides, as Iran's issue is with Zionism itself. There is no appeasing that for Israel.

[japantiger 4,104]

Question: In your opinion, would Israel benefit from ceding land to the Palestinians and allowing them to rule themselves?

Doubtful; Israel's problem is that Israel exists. I make this judgement from reading the regions history, my own travels and interactions in the region; and the actions & words of the regional players. The charters of the "Palestinian" groups and the speeches they deliver make their POV on Israel clear. Also, when Israel seeds land; chaos is left in its wake. Hezbollah in charge in Southern Lebanon, Hamas in the Gaza, etc. No matter what Israel does; there is always another border; always another group of Crazies supported by Iran, etc., looking to right old wrongs; real or imagined.

As for the efficacy of the Palestinians, they didn't rule themselves before; and where they have autonomy today, they don't really rule themselves. There are two warring factions (Fatah or the PA; and Hamas) supported by the Crazies, Iran, Egypt alternately; a real rats nest. Since 2005, the PA has controlled the Gaza Strip (Israel pulled out ceding them de-facto control); the most disputed territory; that has done nothing to settle the situation. The PA controls Gaza in name only....Hamas is really in control. The PA and Hamas have been arguing over Gaza control for the better part of a decade and given their very different world views; aren't ever likely to agree.

If this was really about a "state" or peace, you wouldn't have Hamas kidnapping and murdering children this past week in the Gaza; one a US citizen.

Indeed. Ceding land might appease a few groups of Palestinians, but certainly not the agitators in the area. That said, Israel has its own history of provocation, and that has helped the situation none.

Looking at Iran as one of the chief agitators, if one accepts the most moderate interpretation of Iran's position on Israel, it is clear that they consider Israel to be an occupying regime that is not to be compromised with. They think the Palestinians should return, and the current Israelis and Palestinians choose their system of government through referendums. This position guarantees inflexibility on both sides, as Iran's issue is with Zionism itself. There is no appeasing that for Israel.

So the conclusion is; we act in our interests...which means keeping the Crazies in check. No one wants to have to do this...but to not accept reality emboldens the Crazies.

[icanthearyou 4,468]

JT,

In your opinion, is utilizing our intelligence a better option than the military? Could it be if our intelligence services were more cooperative and less competitive?