Yeah, Great Move Chief

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

DKW.....are you kidding....Russia has given up in the middle East? Wrong.....they are the most influential major power in the middle east right now because of oil and trade, especially in weapons trade.

[Strychnine 1,808]

Their economies will not demand that China and India get drawn into the war for oil. They are far more interested in simply buying from them than getting involved in the politics of the region, or trying to change the indigenous ideologies. If the Chinese do anything, they would come in and build some infrastructure. The Russians are more interested in buying whatever they need from them, and selling them weapons. Most countries would rather be the disinterested third parties that they actually are in regard to the regional politics. A large swath of the rest of the world opposed the invasion of Iraq, as they saw the elimination of sanctions and normalization of relations with Saddam's Iraq as the better course of action. I agreed with this position, as it was abundantly obvious what would happen when the floodgates were opened after we successfully toppled the government. Anyone that understood the history of the region knew what would happen, and anyone that did not bother to understand it had no business having an opinion on the matter. If every country in the region affected thinks an invasion is a bad idea, it probably is.

Had we not spent so much time alienating them, Syria and Iran might be interested in helping us on this matter. However, I almost think they would be willing to allow Iraq be taken over by ISIS simply to spite us. The reality is that we now have no good course of action, as all of our options are bad. Military action is bad, as is doing nothing. What we see now is the end result of decades worth of stubborn and foolish foreign policy. The Middle East can collectively say: "You made this mess, now deal with it!", and they are perfectly correct and justified in that position.

The problem with comparing Iraq to a situation like postwar Korea is that they are utterly different people. Under Saddam, power mostly rested with the minority Sunni. Now it rests primarily with the majority Shiite, and Sunni groups are bringing the violent ruckus. Saddam himself was a secularist, and would tolerate none of this nonsense. He may have been a genocidal dictator as far as we are concerned, but he also understood how to keep situations like current events in Iraq from starting in the first place. As soon as a group like ISIS even started talking about moving against him, they would have been brutally eliminated. For those that have been paying attention, this is the same kind of situation that ultimately led to some particularly vicious genocide in Rwanda. However, Korea was only in danger from North Korea if we left, but they were not in any internal danger comparative to Iraq. Korea was far more interested in developing a modern country than ethnic or religious quarrels. That is also what Saddam was mostly interested in.

Our problem in the situation is that once we were there, it was a lose-lose for us. The American people are not interested in seeing more American casualties in Iraq for another decade or two, and that is what it would have taken. The only positive I see for us at this point is that we do have an opportunity to engage countries like Syria and Iran in better relations, which would ultimately be better for us, the region, and Iraq itself.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

Stry......I don't agree with some of what you say but good post. Nice to see intelligent opinions expressed without subseqent childish sniping.

[Strychnine 1,808]

Stry......I don't agree with some of what you say but good post. Nice to see intelligent opinions expressed without subseqent childish sniping.

Thank you. I am not a Democrat or Republican, and have little use for either. That probably has a lot to do with my perspective and how I express it, as I find the Obama administration that everyone loves to whine about no more or less incompetent than its predecessor. We can all disagree, and dissenting opinions do not mean that those holding them are stupid.

[homersapien 12,172]

Raptor, does he surround himself with incompetence or do they all ebb to his level?

Just something to think about. We are about to have Iraq & Afghanistan back to "Worse than 2001Levels."

We have spent $1TN on the two wars and we are about to have the clock in the Middle East set back to the 7th Century.

Our foreign policy could not be worse. Obama = CarterII.

You guys are hilarious. You were all hell-bent on invading Iraq even though any thinking person could see where that would lead. It's not a natural country. It was held together with an iron- handed dictator. Well, we freed them from that dictator and the country is coming apart. It was a fundamentally flawed idea. You don't fix those.

So you would have rather had Hussein keep the genocide going while throwing his own people in meat grinders? Do you even think about what you post?

So you think the invasion of Iraq was a good idea even in hindsight? Do you think we should still be present there in force?

No i think it was a bad decision/

For good or bad, we have spent the blood and treasure there. We own it now.

Having it go back to before the Middle Ages, you are okay with that?

Well I'll just have to accept it, OK or not. (Just like you and the rest of us.)

[TitanTiger 21,067]

I might be naive. In hindsight we should never have gone in there. It was either an intelligence cluster**** of epic proportions or people in the higher levels of gov't outright ignoring and/or concealing evidence that contradicted the WMD battle cry of the time that got us in there. And the utter idiocy of believing we'd be greeted as liberators. Geez.

That said, once we did it, I wonder if it would have made more sense to just allow the former country of Iraq to divide into new states...one Kurdish in the north, one Shia and one Sunni and perhaps one that was more or less secular or all of the above. Then come up with some equitable way for them to all share the oil resources and money. Maybe that could have headed off some of the sectarian violence. I don't know.

Thoughts?

[homersapien 12,172]

"Wow. You've got nothing but hate and ridicule, yet you can't point out what he's NOT doing that he should be doing. If he's missing the obvious, what is the obvious? You complain constantly but offer nothing positive."

Thsi^^ is rife with irony. It is not OUR job to run the country and just because barry is awful at his job doesn't mean our assessment of his performance is driven by hatred. Are you going to scold us all for being racists for disagreeing with barry? When we point out Hillary's failures are you going to scold us for being misogynists? Are you going to call me a xenophobe for disagreeing with not enforcing our borders?

Heres a newsflash. EVERYTHING is not about emotion. I know, I know you liberals try your damnedest to package EVERYTHING in emotional explanations. Its pathetic and weak just like the results of every move these boobs make.

Well, it might help if you stopped focusing on terrible "Barry" is as a person and talked specifically about his policies.

And you are correct. We all come from emotion. That's what's nice about a written forum. I gives you the chance to move beyond your initial emotion and articulate some reasoning. You folks are either disinclined, too lazy or too incompetent to go beyond the emotion. All we get are more creative ways to trash Obama as a man.

[homersapien 12,172]

"Wow. You've got nothing but hate and ridicule, yet you can't point out what he's NOT doing that he should be doing. If he's missing the obvious, what is the obvious? You complain constantly but offer nothing positive."

Thsi^^ is rife with irony. It is not OUR job to run the country and just because barry is awful at his job doesn't mean our assessment of his performance is driven by hatred. Are you going to scold us all for being racists for disagreeing with barry? When we point out Hillary's failures are you going to scold us for being misogynists? Are you going to call me a xenophobe for disagreeing with not enforcing our borders?

Heres a newsflash. EVERYTHING is not about emotion. I know, I know you liberals try your damnedest to package EVERYTHING in emotional explanations. Its pathetic and weak just like the results of every move these boobs make.

I'm not asking for emotion. I'm asking for proposed solutions. You offer none. All you have is emotion. You bring nothing useful to the table. Come on. Say something remotely thoughtful and useful.

Don't bother....it's not like it matters or even makes sense to offer "solutions" when we have no real power here. It's just another TT ploy.

Better go watch some Fox cable. You're getting low on material.

[homersapien 12,172]

Tex, you didnt answer my question. You think it is just fine to walk away from the mess that we created over there? You think it is fine to just waste all the blood, sweat, and tears and money we sent over there and sit back and watch the situation turn far worse than it has been in maybe centuries? Do you think it is okay for the women to be mistreated by these misogynistic bastards? You think it is fine for the children to be indoctrinated/brainwashed by these madmen? Do you think the people of that area are just not human and are therefore not worthy of aid? Did you sit back and smile as the US & UN watched 800K Africans die to genocide in Rwanda? Do you have no heart for those less fortunate?

And just for the record, Tex's MO is to continually ask questions and to wear you out explaining the answers, to which he will only feign not understanding and then rinse and repeat ad nauseum. Tex is why some on the board use the phrase: "I can explain it to you, i cannot comprehend it for you." It just is what it is...

I remember similar arguments about Vietnam.

[homersapien 12,172]

He and his little kid buddies love to demand that others answer their questions, but they have no stones to answer simple questions posed to them.

Liberals=gutless and they follow their leader closely.

Great argument Weegle! :-\

[Weegle777 78]

Thanks!

[Strychnine 1,808]

I might be naive. In hindsight we should never have gone in there. It was either an intelligence cluster**** of epic proportions or people in the higher levels of gov't outright ignoring and/or concealing evidence that contradicted the WMD battle cry of the time that got us in there. And the utter idiocy of believing we'd be greeted as liberators. Geez.

That said, once we did it, I wonder if it would have made more sense to just allow the former country of Iraq to divide into new states...one Kurdish in the north, one Shia and one Sunni and perhaps one that was more or less secular or all of the above. Then come up with some equitable way for them to all share the oil resources and money. Maybe that could have headed off some of the sectarian violence. I don't know.

Thoughts?

Sunni and Shia were able to coexist for quite some time, but their issue with one another is an interesting one. It's a succession war and religious crusade all rolled into one. In a world without Wahhabi's, a concept like dividing Iraq would not even be necessary. Had we divided Iraq into separate Sunni, Shia, and Kurdish states, I think it would have worked for a while. However, once the Wahhabi got going in the Sunni state, they would promptly decide to attack the Shia state to reunite the caliphate and get rid of the Shiites.

In case people here did not know, groups like Al-Qaeda and ISIS are Wahhabi Sunnis. There are Shia terrorist groups too, but they are more like Hezbollah. Some might say an Islamic terrorist is a terrorist, but that is not quite true. For example, Hezbollah denounced the 9/11 attack on the World Trade Center (but not the Pentagon), and it was not mere lip service.

Syria has become an interesting one to watch. We were initially supportive of the Syrian rebels, then the Wahhabi groups came. A group like Hezbollah was smart enough to see that coming from the beginning, just as Iran did. Those groups want to spread their influence wherever they can. They know they have no hope of taking over a country like Iran, Saudi Arabia, or even Jordan, so they show up wherever there is enough instability that they might tip the scale and emerge on top in the aftermath.

Basically, it's too complicated of an issue for a bunch of outsiders to have any chance of resolving appropriately without obtaining real involvement and cooperation from their neighbors. The only thing that would have worked for any length of time AND allowed our withdrawal would have been improving relations between Iraq's neighbors (namely Syria and Iran) and us to an extent that we could have negotiated something like a mutual defense pact while Iraq developed further. For us to be able to effect positive and lasting change in the region, we have to shed the perception that we are little more than the big stick that Israel swings, and forge a real relationship with countries like Iran.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

Stry....FYI I'm not Republican or Dem either but if the current administration and other key leaders (Pelosi, Reid, etc.) are he measuring I ma for sure closer to being a conservative Republican.

[icanthearyou 4,468]

"Wow. You've got nothing but hate and ridicule, yet you can't point out what he's NOT doing that he should be doing. If he's missing the obvious, what is the obvious? You complain constantly but offer nothing positive."

Thsi^^ is rife with irony. It is not OUR job to run the country and just because barry is awful at his job doesn't mean our assessment of his performance is driven by hatred. Are you going to scold us all for being racists for disagreeing with barry? When we point out Hillary's failures are you going to scold us for being misogynists? Are you going to call me a xenophobe for disagreeing with not enforcing our borders?

Heres a newsflash. EVERYTHING is not about emotion. I know, I know you liberals try your damnedest to package EVERYTHING in emotional explanations. Its pathetic and weak just like the results of every move these boobs make.

I'm not asking for emotion. I'm asking for proposed solutions. You offer none. All you have is emotion. You bring nothing useful to the table. Come on. Say something remotely thoughtful and useful.

Don't bother....it's not like it matters or even makes sense to offer "solutions" when we have no real power here. It's just another TT ploy.

Better go watch some Fox cable. You're getting low on material.

That there Oblammer is a keynyan commie moslim terrist lookin out for his peeps. Thats all the matereal any body other than a libtard dimocrap needs.

[DKW 86 7,866]

They don't have troops on the ground. See First Afghan war.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

I understand but they do still have a lot of influence there and when we pull out they will have even more with many of the Afghan tribes. We will have NONE.

[DKW 86 7,866]

With some good leadership, we will always have some, either thru the Saudis or thru the UN, or just from the oil industry. But we need to get out and stay out now.

[Proud Tiger 4,261]

"Good leadership?" Hasn't that become an oxymoron?

[DKW 86 7,866]

Pretty much is an oxymoron these days.

Oblivious or Out-to-Lunch is the flavor of the day for the last decade or so.

[autigeremt 7,133]

"Wow. You've got nothing but hate and ridicule, yet you can't point out what he's NOT doing that he should be doing. If he's missing the obvious, what is the obvious? You complain constantly but offer nothing positive."

Thsi^^ is rife with irony. It is not OUR job to run the country and just because barry is awful at his job doesn't mean our assessment of his performance is driven by hatred. Are you going to scold us all for being racists for disagreeing with barry? When we point out Hillary's failures are you going to scold us for being misogynists? Are you going to call me a xenophobe for disagreeing with not enforcing our borders?

Heres a newsflash. EVERYTHING is not about emotion. I know, I know you liberals try your damnedest to package EVERYTHING in emotional explanations. Its pathetic and weak just like the results of every move these boobs make.

I'm not asking for emotion. I'm asking for proposed solutions. You offer none. All you have is emotion. You bring nothing useful to the table. Come on. Say something remotely thoughtful and useful.

Don't bother....it's not like it matters or even makes sense to offer "solutions" when we have no real power here. It's just another TT ploy.

Better go watch some Fox cable. You're getting low on material.

I don't watch Fox cable because I have too much going on...unlike you so go back to your yellow stained underwear in your mothers basement and fire up the MAC. !!!!

[homersapien 12,172]

I might be naive. In hindsight we should never have gone in there. It was either an intelligence cluster**** of epic proportions or people in the higher levels of gov't outright ignoring and/or concealing evidence that contradicted the WMD battle cry of the time that got us in there. And the utter idiocy of believing we'd be greeted as liberators. Geez.

That said, once we did it, I wonder if it would have made more sense to just allow the former country of Iraq to divide into new states...one Kurdish in the north, one Shia and one Sunni and perhaps one that was more or less secular or all of the above. Then come up with some equitable way for them to all share the oil resources and money. Maybe that could have headed off some of the sectarian violence. I don't know.

Thoughts?

That's what Joe Biden proposed. http://www.defenseon...ing-iraq/77954/

The basic problem in every ME country that is failing is their inability for compromise and inclusion. Whoever has the power excludes the minority groups.

And after all, it was all a creation of the British who's purpose was to disperse political concentrations into "countries".

[homersapien 12,172]

Stry......I don't agree with some of what you say but good post. Nice to see intelligent opinions expressed without subseqent childish sniping.

Thank you. I am not a Democrat or Republican, and have little use for either. That probably has a lot to do with my perspective and how I express it, as I find the Obama administration that everyone loves to whine about no more or less incompetent than its predecessor. We can all disagree, and dissenting opinions do not mean that those holding them are stupid.

Not to mention "bammers" .

[homersapien 12,172]

My proposal is as follows:

• Use air power to blunt the ISIS advance
  
• Get advisors back in there to plan the Iraq forces counter attack and then counter attack with Iraqi forces supported by US air power...don't let them rest or sleep...harass them constantly from the air
  
• Go to the negotiating table with Maliki, like an adult, and get a damn status of forces agreement like we should have done 3 years ago that would have prevented this...and keep a deterrent force in the country for the forseeable future; open ended commit
  
• Deal with getting the Iranian's out that have come in...going to be ugly...but, his Worship created the situation he has to deal with it.
  
• Learn from this and revise current Afghan course and speed
  

First, props for throwing something out.

But that doesn't really address the political question. I agree the status of forces agreement is critical, but the problem is the current government is Shiite and none of the minorities have a voice. If we support Malaki (sp?) we are essentially siding with the Shia in a civil war.

Also, there are problems with using air power as that will require at least special forces troops on the ground, (at least if you want it to be productive instead of counter-productive).

[homersapien 12,172]

"Wow. You've got nothing but hate and ridicule, yet you can't point out what he's NOT doing that he should be doing. If he's missing the obvious, what is the obvious? You complain constantly but offer nothing positive."

Thsi^^ is rife with irony. It is not OUR job to run the country and just because barry is awful at his job doesn't mean our assessment of his performance is driven by hatred. Are you going to scold us all for being racists for disagreeing with barry? When we point out Hillary's failures are you going to scold us for being misogynists? Are you going to call me a xenophobe for disagreeing with not enforcing our borders?

Heres a newsflash. EVERYTHING is not about emotion. I know, I know you liberals try your damnedest to package EVERYTHING in emotional explanations. Its pathetic and weak just like the results of every move these boobs make.

I'm not asking for emotion. I'm asking for proposed solutions. You offer none. All you have is emotion. You bring nothing useful to the table. Come on. Say something remotely thoughtful and useful.

Don't bother....it's not like it matters or even makes sense to offer "solutions" when we have no real power here. It's just another TT ploy.

Better go watch some Fox cable. You're getting low on material.

I don't watch Fox cable because I have too much going on...unlike you so go back to your yellow stained underwear in your mothers basement and fire up the MAC. !!!!

Mac. I wish.

(And I don't wear underwear).