ESPN bias is ridiculous!!!

[Weegle777 78]

When we win out and raise that Playoff Championship Trophy, it won't make a crap what those idiots say.

[Tigerbelle 5,299]

When you have the #1 recruiting classes for ... forever and have won 3 nc's in 5 years, it's hard not to pick uat pretty far up there every year by brain-dead default.

Bottom line - we're going to have to more than just wound "the beast", we're going to have to cut its friggin head off. This year has the potential to do just that.

Amen. You are a nitwit if you really think this is some big example of Alabama bias. On paper they have more talent than anybody in the country. And that will make it all the more pleasurable towhip their tails again this year.

Nitwit? No need to be ugly about it. You just have a different opinion. Geeze.

I actually agree that ESPN is all about bammer most of the time. The bammers that work there make sure of it. I still haven't forgotten 2010,either. Or what they did to Cam at his Heisman ceremony. Auburn does not get respect from ESPN in the way it should, but I hope that changes soon.

It's frustrating to listen to those goobers, so I seldom do unless I can't avoid it.

Yes, nitwits. No more ugly than goobers. So who are all these biased Bammers at ESPN? Yes there's some people out there that says things that we don't agree with about our team. I do think that Jesse Palmer sounds like a douche pretty often. I'm not a fan of everybody on ESPN. But I don't think that network has some massive bias against us. Do they have a Saban love fest? Sure. But he has the number 1 recruiting class in the country almost every year and 4 national championships. Based on results he's one of the three or four best coaches of all time, and he may win more yet. Like it or not he will go down as a superstar of college football coaching. For me, this just makes beating Alabama and succeeding in spite of their presence all the more exciting and entertaining. But I'm not going to cry and moan about ESPN when ESPN is putting us in their preseason top 4.

ESPN is not a poster here nor do they deserve my respect after what they did to Cam Newton. And they sure aren't a fellow Auburn fan. There's still no reason to call the OP a nitwit for having a different opinion.

[AU-24 3,128]

I know, I know, I know....

It's not so much that they said anything bad about us, it's just that they TOTALLY ignored us! We could have been the East Westchester Northstars from nowhere and they would have had more say...

I guess it will keep us humble, which is more than you can say for that other team.

It is very frustrating, I know. Palmer hates us, Rece Davis can't stand us, BSPN's Big 10 Homers despise the entire SEC, and Lou Holtz is an enemy.

The good news is, we have a first class coaching staff that will consistently win! BSPN and others will have no choice but to say and print more positive things as the years go by.

Gus and our staff are well liked by the public. The more exposure winning gives us, the more positive impression the public will have of our AU, regardless of what BSPN has to say.

[3rdgeneration 6,625]

Thanks, Tigerbelle, for taking up for me...haha. Us female Auburn fans have to stick together! I'm not offended. I know I should just rise above the lack of respect we get. But sometimes, it just gets under my skin! We were literally ignored in the entire conversation, even though they had us in the top 4. Uurrrgggh!

[WarTiger 4,011]

ESPN is not a poster here nor do they deserve my respect after what they did to Cam Newton. And they sure aren't a fellow Auburn fan. There's still no reason to call the OP a nitwit for having a different opinion.

Exactly spot on. Respect is earned and ESPN has done nothing as far as Auburn is concerned to earn that respect. Since this topic is about ESPN's bias against Auburn let's take a look at it. Whether some want to admit or not, ESPN has a MAJOR SAY in who is atop the polls on a given week. They choose what they want to report on and because of their choices, the voters take what they say as fact, when its often not fact at all. We all thought we deserved to play in the BCS Title game in 2004. The bottom line is #1 and #2 in August never lost all season. It is what it is and we finished #3 in the BCS. However, ESPN felt they had to make some kind of justification for Auburn being left out so they pointed to our game vs. The Citadel and used it to cite schedule strength. We all know the argument was absolute crap because we had a tougher schedule WITH the citadel on the schedule than Oklahoma and USC combined. It was their talking point to keep us out of the discussion. It paid off because the voters refused to jump us ahead of either USC or Oklahoma that year IN SPITE OF OUR FAR SUPERIOR Strength of schedule. We were undefeated too. Now, fast forward to 2008. Florida lost in week 4 to Ole Miss, and then never lost again. They went on to win the SEC (beat uat) and then played Oklahoma for the National Title. Oh, and guess who they played that year? Yep, they played THE CITADEL. The same team ESPN used to justify Auburn being left out, yet ZERO mention of Florida playing them. Why was there no mention of Florida playing the Citadel? USC won the Pac 10 and was 11-1, Penn State won the Big 10 and was 11-1. Utah was the Mountain West and was 12-0, uat was 12-1, Texas was 11-1 and Oklahoma was 12-1. Yet Florida (while playing the same Citadel team) was provided a shot to play for a title. Not one mention of them playing The Citadel and hurting their SOS.

The entire 18 months of the Cam Newton garbage proved that ESPN was definitely NOT a fan of Auburn. They just went with every single story out there to vilify Newton, his family and the University he represented. They never once actually investigated a story to check its validity. They had idiots like Joe Schad (who has never reported accurate information since he's been there), Danny Sheridan (who is a known uater and hates Auburn) and Paul Finebaum (also a hater of Auburn) on almost every single day talking about what the NCAA has found or is looking for. Basically every single person they talked to about that "case" had Auburn guilty and facing SEVERE sanctions and probation. The NCAA for the first time EVER issued a statement at the end and said we base our case on FACTS and not on internet rumors or message board chatter. They went on to announce that THEY FOUND NOTHING WHILE INVESTIGATING AUBURN....NOTHING. Here we are 4 years later and NOT ONE RETRACTION. Not one article or story from ESPN about how we were innocent and they were wrong. They vilified Auburn and Newton and his family for 18 months and when it was proven NOTHING HAPPENED, they just went silent. No apology, no retraction, NOTHING.

Fast forward to now and there is NO DOUBT with any of us here that we should be the clear favorite to win the SEC this season. But we have idiots like Jesse Palmer (who knowingly hates Auburn too) running off at the mouth about how lucky we were last year. He refuses to give us any credit for what we accomplished. Called it a fluke and luck. EVERY SINGLE TEAM that ever wins a title has had some luck along the way to get there. EVERY SINGLE TEAM. We return every key piece on offense while most are looking for new QB's. Yet, somehow they managed to rank a uat team (which lost a TON of players and their qb) ahead of us?? Really? The games are not played on paper. I would also argue that our talent at Auburn is at worse, on par with every other school in the country and better than most.

Now, I don't know if ESPN is biased or not, but they sure as hell don't care how their negative stories impact Auburn. Is ESPN biased against Auburn....I say pretty much YES they are.

[Weegle777 78]

Good post WT. Well said.

[3rdgeneration 6,625]

Yeah...what he said! LOL

[doc4aday 1,887]

We were the only team in America in 2013 that could have beaten FSU. FSU would have beaten bammer by at least 17-21 points. I think this might be true for 2014 with a rematch of Auburn and FSU. This time, we stuff the convict all the way to the Florida penal system where he should be this very moment.

[kingfish 73]

WT, the voice of reason speaks.

[Aufan59 168]

ESPN is not a poster here nor do they deserve my respect after what they did to Cam Newton. And they sure aren't a fellow Auburn fan. There's still no reason to call the OP a nitwit for having a different opinion.

Exactly spot on. Respect is earned and ESPN has done nothing as far as Auburn is concerned to earn that respect. Since this topic is about ESPN's bias against Auburn let's take a look at it. Whether some want to admit or not, ESPN has a MAJOR SAY in who is atop the polls on a given week. They choose what they want to report on and because of their choices, the voters take what they say as fact, when its often not fact at all. We all thought we deserved to play in the BCS Title game in 2004. The bottom line is #1 and #2 in August never lost all season. It is what it is and we finished #3 in the BCS. However, ESPN felt they had to make some kind of justification for Auburn being left out so they pointed to our game vs. The Citadel and used it to cite schedule strength. We all know the argument was absolute crap because we had a tougher schedule WITH the citadel on the schedule than Oklahoma and USC combined. It was their talking point to keep us out of the discussion. It paid off because the voters refused to jump us ahead of either USC or Oklahoma that year IN SPITE OF OUR FAR SUPERIOR Strength of schedule. We were undefeated too. Now, fast forward to 2008. Florida lost in week 4 to Ole Miss, and then never lost again. They went on to win the SEC (beat uat) and then played Oklahoma for the National Title. Oh, and guess who they played that year? Yep, they played THE CITADEL. The same team ESPN used to justify Auburn being left out, yet ZERO mention of Florida playing them. Why was there no mention of Florida playing the Citadel? USC won the Pac 10 and was 11-1, Penn State won the Big 10 and was 11-1. Utah was the Mountain West and was 12-0, uat was 12-1, Texas was 11-1 and Oklahoma was 12-1. Yet Florida (while playing the same Citadel team) was provided a shot to play for a title. Not one mention of them playing The Citadel and hurting their SOS.

The entire 18 months of the Cam Newton garbage proved that ESPN was definitely NOT a fan of Auburn. They just went with every single story out there to vilify Newton, his family and the University he represented. They never once actually investigated a story to check its validity. They had idiots like Joe Schad (who has never reported accurate information since he's been there), Danny Sheridan (who is a known uat and hates Auburn) and Paul Finebaum (also a hater of Auburn) on almost every single day talking about what the NCAA has found or is looking for. Basically every single person they talked to about that "case" had Auburn guilty and facing SEVERE sanctions and probation. The NCAA for the first time EVER issued a statement at the end and said we base our case on FACTS and not on internet rumors or message board chatter. They went on to announce that THEY FOUND NOTHING WHILE INVESTIGATING AUBURN....NOTHING. Here we are 4 years later and NOT ONE RETRACTION. Not one article or story from ESPN about how we were innocent and they were wrong. They vilified Auburn and Newton and his family for 18 months and when it was proven NOTHING HAPPENED, they just went silent. No apology, no retraction, NOTHING.

Fast forward to now and there is NO DOUBT with any of us here that we should be the clear favorite to win the SEC this season. But we have idiots like Jesse Palmer (who knowingly hates Auburn too) running off at the mouth about how lucky we were last year. He refuses to give us any credit for what we accomplished. Called it a fluke and luck. EVERY SINGLE TEAM that ever wins a title has had some luck along the way to get there. EVERY SINGLE TEAM. We return every key piece on offense while most are looking for new QB's. Yet, somehow they managed to rank a uat team (which lost a TON of players and their qb) ahead of us?? Really? The games are not played on paper. I would also argue that our talent at Auburn is at worse, on par with every other school in the country and better than most.

Now, I don't know if ESPN is biased or not, but they sure as hell don't care how their negative stories impact Auburn. Is ESPN biased against Auburn....I say pretty much YES they are.

Florida played Miami and FSU that year too. Auburn didn't play a BCS opponent in a non conference game In 2004. It wasn't just having the citadel on the schedule.

[WarTiger 4,011]

ESPN is not a poster here nor do they deserve my respect after what they did to Cam Newton. And they sure aren't a fellow Auburn fan. There's still no reason to call the OP a nitwit for having a different opinion.

Exactly spot on. Respect is earned and ESPN has done nothing as far as Auburn is concerned to earn that respect. Since this topic is about ESPN's bias against Auburn let's take a look at it. Whether some want to admit or not, ESPN has a MAJOR SAY in who is atop the polls on a given week. They choose what they want to report on and because of their choices, the voters take what they say as fact, when its often not fact at all. We all thought we deserved to play in the BCS Title game in 2004. The bottom line is #1 and #2 in August never lost all season. It is what it is and we finished #3 in the BCS. However, ESPN felt they had to make some kind of justification for Auburn being left out so they pointed to our game vs. The Citadel and used it to cite schedule strength. We all know the argument was absolute crap because we had a tougher schedule WITH the citadel on the schedule than Oklahoma and USC combined. It was their talking point to keep us out of the discussion. It paid off because the voters refused to jump us ahead of either USC or Oklahoma that year IN SPITE OF OUR FAR SUPERIOR Strength of schedule. We were undefeated too. Now, fast forward to 2008. Florida lost in week 4 to Ole Miss, and then never lost again. They went on to win the SEC (beat uat) and then played Oklahoma for the National Title. Oh, and guess who they played that year? Yep, they played THE CITADEL. The same team ESPN used to justify Auburn being left out, yet ZERO mention of Florida playing them. Why was there no mention of Florida playing the Citadel? USC won the Pac 10 and was 11-1, Penn State won the Big 10 and was 11-1. Utah was the Mountain West and was 12-0, uat was 12-1, Texas was 11-1 and Oklahoma was 12-1. Yet Florida (while playing the same Citadel team) was provided a shot to play for a title. Not one mention of them playing The Citadel and hurting their SOS.

The entire 18 months of the Cam Newton garbage proved that ESPN was definitely NOT a fan of Auburn. They just went with every single story out there to vilify Newton, his family and the University he represented. They never once actually investigated a story to check its validity. They had idiots like Joe Schad (who has never reported accurate information since he's been there), Danny Sheridan (who is a known uat and hates Auburn) and Paul Finebaum (also a hater of Auburn) on almost every single day talking about what the NCAA has found or is looking for. Basically every single person they talked to about that "case" had Auburn guilty and facing SEVERE sanctions and probation. The NCAA for the first time EVER issued a statement at the end and said we base our case on FACTS and not on internet rumors or message board chatter. They went on to announce that THEY FOUND NOTHING WHILE INVESTIGATING AUBURN....NOTHING. Here we are 4 years later and NOT ONE RETRACTION. Not one article or story from ESPN about how we were innocent and they were wrong. They vilified Auburn and Newton and his family for 18 months and when it was proven NOTHING HAPPENED, they just went silent. No apology, no retraction, NOTHING.

Fast forward to now and there is NO DOUBT with any of us here that we should be the clear favorite to win the SEC this season. But we have idiots like Jesse Palmer (who knowingly hates Auburn too) running off at the mouth about how lucky we were last year. He refuses to give us any credit for what we accomplished. Called it a fluke and luck. EVERY SINGLE TEAM that ever wins a title has had some luck along the way to get there. EVERY SINGLE TEAM. We return every key piece on offense while most are looking for new QB's. Yet, somehow they managed to rank a uat team (which lost a TON of players and their qb) ahead of us?? Really? The games are not played on paper. I would also argue that our talent at Auburn is at worse, on par with every other school in the country and better than most.

Now, I don't know if ESPN is biased or not, but they sure as hell don't care how their negative stories impact Auburn. Is ESPN biased against Auburn....I say pretty much YES they are.

Florida played Miami and FSU that year too. Auburn didn't play a BCS opponent in a non conference game In 2004. It wasn't just having the citadel on the schedule.

That's true, but it wasn't a talking point by the media to keep us out of the game. The ONLY talking point by the media was us playing The Citadel. Even without a BCS non conference opponent on the schedule our SOS was still higher than USC and Oklahoma's. They CREATED an excuse to exclude Auburn by using the Citadel being on the schedule, when all that needed to be said was the #1 and #2 teams in August NEVER LOST all season. I firmly believe that if ESPN hadn't gone out of their way to constantly bring up our game with The Citadel that we would have probably leaped over one of those teams that year. ESPN speaks and when they do the pollsters listen. it's just that simple.

In 2008 FSU was a 9-4 team with losses to Wake Forest, Georgia Tech, Boston college and Florida. 2008 Miami was 7-6 with losses to Floirda, North Carolina (they later vacated the game but its still a loss for miami), FSU, Georgia Tech, NC State and California. Combined those two teams were 16-10. Neither of those teams were actually stellar teams and beating either one of them didn't mean much in the SOS. Those were teams Florida was supposed to beat.

[WarEagle84 0]

IIRC, wasn't The Citadel a last minute addition to the schedule after another opponent backed out on us? I don't recall ESPN ever bringing that up.

[weagl1 1,796]

There seems to be a big difference in what the commentators spout off on the "expert analysis" portion of the shows and what the network executives think about Auburn. How else do we explain the fact that we are THE most televised team on the network and always have been, yet the jerk-offs giving the opinions always want to take shots at us? Something I have never understood. Are we just the ones they love to hate is the whole thing just ratings driven?

[Dom1ni0n 51]

IIRC, wasn't The Citadel a last minute addition to the schedule after another opponent backed out on us? I don't recall ESPN ever bringing that up.

Scheduling mishaps are quite routine, but were rarely reported prior to social media going viral.

As I recall, Auburn was originally slated to do a 3-game series with GT from 2003-2005, where the home and home would be played in '03 and '05, and a split ticket affair in the Georgia Dome for '04. This series was arranged back when O'Leary was HC. After Chan Gailey took over, he was not interested in the lone neutral site contest, which led to GT backing out of that game to pick up Samford, which in turn led to AU having took elsewhere. There weren't many last-minute BCS-quality options available, so it was either going to be an FBS mid-major or an FCS school. I was told that a pitch was made to a pretty decent Bowling Green team at the time, but they were offered more ducats by Oklahoma ironically enough, and the rest is history.

[auburnatl1 6,019]

Suggestion when you have a lot of free time - Google just two words - "espn hates" and watch the list come up of every team, in every sport.

[auburn4ever 1,266]

Yes, The Citadel was a last minute addition.

[AUbritt 611]

Waiting from Weegs to weigh in on the male-female difference. Getting popcorn ready .... ;-)

[AU Counsel 64]

There seems to be a big difference in what the commentators spout off on the "expert analysis" portion of the shows and what the network executives think about Auburn. How else do we explain the fact that we are THE most televised team on the network and always have been, yet the jerk-offs giving the opinions always want to take shots at us? Something I have never understood. Are we just the ones they love to hate is the whole thing just ratings driven?

Because ESPN is not biased against us. Now maybe some other experts don't like us. And if you are being unbiased, then it should make complete sense why the rest of the country thought we bought Cam. I believe we were clean in that deal, but after Cecil hit up Mississippi State for money,and as controversial as Can already was, he was going to be a huge story no matter what. Let's not pretend that ESPN, Fox Sports, nor any other sports network is known for quality journalism.

As far as 2004 goes, we got screwed. But that was not anti Auburn bias. That was about to preseason top teams winning out, when an upstart team like Auburn won out as well. Somebody was going to get screwed. Our preseason ranking and the inherent bias of people not wanting to admit they are wrong is what got us screwed.

Under Tommy Tubberville, we were known as a program that all too often lost games that we shouldn't lose despite being a more talented team than our opponent. We are finally at a stage where we are viewed as a true national power. Let's enjoy the ride, and hope it lasts for a long time.

[AU-24 3,128]

There seems to be a big difference in what the commentators spout off on the "expert analysis" portion of the shows and what the network executives think about Auburn. How else do we explain the fact that we are THE most televised team on the network and always have been, yet the jerk-offs giving the opinions always want to take shots at us? Something I have never understood. Are we just the ones they love to hate is the whole thing just ratings driven?

Because ESPN is not biased against us. Now maybe some other experts don't like us. And if you are being unbiased, then it should make complete sense why the rest of the country thought we bought Cam. I believe we were clean in that deal, but after Cecil hit up Mississippi State for money,and as controversial as Can already was, he was going to be a huge story no matter what. Let's not pretend that ESPN, Fox Sports, nor any other sports network is known for quality journalism.

As far as 2004 goes, we got screwed. But that was not anti Auburn bias. That was about to preseason top teams winning out, when an upstart team like Auburn won out as well. Somebody was going to get screwed. Our preseason ranking and the inherent bias of people not wanting to admit they are wrong is what got us screwed.

Under Tommy Tubberville, we were known as a program that all too often lost games that we shouldn't lose despite being a more talented team than our opponent. We are finally at a stage where we are viewed as a true national power. Let's enjoy the ride, and hope it lasts for a long time.

The day AU and Cam were completely cleared by the NCAA (and even complemented) BSPN and Sports Center, chose not to cover the story. The day after AU and Cam were completely cleared of any wrong doings, BSPN and Sports Center chose not to cover the story or even tell of it. I mean they didn't even put it on their ticker tape. Sorrry, but that is biased!!

In 2004 there were three undefeated teams at season's end, and the team that played the (by far) Toughest Strength of Schedule wasn't in the BCS Championship game? Sorry but that is just plain wrong and BSPN certainly played their part, as has been pointed out!

Even after the 2004 BCS Championship game (Before we discovered USCw was paying Reggie Bush and his entire family) BSPN was openly making fun of Tubbs for the players rings that read "SECond to none" Yes, that is biased!

[NCTiger82 0]

There seems to be a big difference in what the commentators spout off on the "expert analysis" portion of the shows and what the network executives think about Auburn. How else do we explain the fact that we are THE most televised team on the network and always have been, yet the jerk-offs giving the opinions always want to take shots at us? Something I have never understood. Are we just the ones they love to hate is the whole thing just ratings driven?

Because ESPN is not biased against us. Now maybe some other experts don't like us. And if you are being unbiased, then it should make complete sense why the rest of the country thought we bought Cam. I believe we were clean in that deal, but after Cecil hit up Mississippi State for money,and as controversial as Can already was, he was going to be a huge story no matter what. Let's not pretend that ESPN, Fox Sports, nor any other sports network is known for quality journalism.

As far as 2004 goes, we got screwed. But that was not anti Auburn bias. That was about to preseason top teams winning out, when an upstart team like Auburn won out as well. Somebody was going to get screwed. Our preseason ranking and the inherent bias of people not wanting to admit they are wrong is what got us screwed.

Under Tommy Tubberville, we were known as a program that all too often lost games that we shouldn't lose despite being a more talented team than our opponent. We are finally at a stage where we are viewed as a true national power. Let's enjoy the ride, and hope it lasts for a long time.

The day AU and Cam were completely cleared by the NCAA (and even complemented) BSPN and Sports Center, chose not to cover the story. The day after AU and Cam were completely cleared of any wrong doings, BSPN and Sports Center chose not to cover the story or even tell of it. I mean they didn't even put it on their ticker tape. Sorrry, but that is biased!!

In 2004 there were three undefeated teams at season's end, and the team that played the (by far) Toughest Strength of Schedule wasn't in the BCS Championship game? Sorry but that is just plain wrong and BSPN certainly played their part, as has been pointed out!

Even after the 2004 BCS Championship game (Before we discovered USCw was paying Reggie Bush and his entire family) BSPN was openly making fun of Tubbs for the players rings that read "SECond to none" Yes, that is biased!

The best you can hope for is that ESPN likes your HC, team, etc. so you tend to get favorable coverage. My hope is Gus will continue to earn the talking head's respect and win them over. Herbstriet likes us for defending our SECC and if he sticks with that going into the season it means good things for us. Historically Herb promotes his picks, even after a loss.

War Eagle !

[Mwideman 0]

If someone gave you a bag of poop would you carry it around with you everywhere you go?

If not then why are you carrying around this crap?

[aucanucktiger 1,857]

This is not just an Auburn issue. Saying BSPN does not drool over (or pile on) certain colleges or coaches...although their loves/hates change somewhat every year...is almost as bizarre as the more common practice on this board of admitting they're biased, but saying "so what" about any media with that number of viewers. It's like claiming MSNBC and Fox are politcally neutral, you don't know where to begin with a response. Notwithstanding BSPN's practice of having a rogue devil's advocate chime in for a day or two (e.g. Mark May, Holz or some guy you've never heard of doing an op ed) when the bias gets crazy blatant.

[ShugMan55 0]

Dear Lord. If you don't like ESPN don't watch it. I don't like McDonald's so I don't go. This "ESPN hates us" crap seems to roll through every few months and I usually roll my eyes and go on but jeez, enough is enough. I like ESPN - but then again I grew up in a time when there was one ball game (most often Notre Dame) every weekend. ESPN provides excellent coverage technically and while the announcers are usually idiots who do not do any preparation I see damn near every Auburn game. For me the only thing worse than an Alabama fan on a bragging jag is one of our own Auburn family members on a whining jag.

[JamesG 0]

FACT: Every fan base in every city in every sport at every level has a group of fans who think ESPN hates them. That includes Bama fans, AU fans, Yankee fans, Miami Heat fans..... So on and so forth. Some people only hear the negative and that will never change. Sure, they pump up certain teams/players more than others, they do whatever brings the ratings and further lines their pockets. If talking Tulane football was a ratings hit, they would talk Tulane football all day long.

[AuburnNTexas 7,300]

The fact they had us in the top 4 means there was some respect there. Based on how many times bama has won NC recently and their recruiting classes it would be difficult not to think highly of their chances. The fact that they had two teams from SEC in top 4 especially from same Division is what is surprising. Only one of us can win the SEC West if it is bama we don't get into the top 4 so that pretty much means we will win the SEC West according to ESPN, then the SEC next year as no way ESPN puts us in if we don't so I will take that and if by some miracle after winning the West and SEC and the polls somehow get bama in also. After we beat FSU and OK or whoever plays bama. We will beat the winner of that game also.

Any predictions at this time of the year are based on long term records over last 4-5 years, recruiting classes and personal Biases. Lets worry about predictions from people when everybody has played 5-7 games and we have a real idea of who is good and who is not.